Showing posts with label Ryan Owens. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Ryan Owens. Show all posts

Monday, June 6, 2011

9/11 Truth Movement R.I.P.?

Youtube debunker Ryan Owens recently uploaded his new film titled 9/11 Truth Movement: R.I.P.





As one might expect from a common debunker video, the film is riddled with insults and taunting sound effects. However, within this jumble of silliness and insults there are some actual attempts at debunking claims made by the Truth Movement. So let's take a look at what Mr. Owens has to say in his latest videos.

Video 1:

2:12 The first obvious falsity that can be spotted in Mr. Owens' film is his claim that Truthers believe George Bush carried out the 9/11 attacks. He also implies the movement thinks he faked the moon landings and killed JFK (who claimed this Mr. Owens?). In fact, it seems that few in the movement believe Bush played any major role in the attacks, but that he and the administration could have allowed the attacks to occur. He also mentions how the terrorists have repeatedly claimed responsibility for the attacks. Here's our position on that here and here.

4:17 Mr. Owens next talks to Nico Haupt about no planes at the WTC. Although already quite obvious, hardly any prominent members of the movement believe any sort of "no planes hit the Towers" theories.

6:04 The next topic Ryan discusses is the "fire weakening steel" argument, an issue I recently extensively addressed. He also discusses the "free-fall" issue of the Towers' collapses. As I have already demonstrated, the collapse times of the Towers were consistent with controlled demolitions.

6:52 At this point, Mr. Owens brings up the fact that the majority of architects and engineers in the world have not signed the AE911Truth petition. This sort of argument simply appeals to majority, and doesn't bother to address the actual evidence. Neither Mr. Owens or I can say for sure how many architects and engineers in the world have even read the NIST reports. But it is obvious that 1500 architects and engineers is an impressive amount. And who knows? Perhaps someday we will have the majority on our side. The debunkers are the same people who used to claim we would never get even one architect or engineer to agree with us. They have obviously been proven wrong there. Of course, when that happens all they can do is move the goalpost.

"[W]e must keep in mind that consensus is no criterion. The truth may not rest in the middle. The truth may not rest with the majority. Every theory and individual argument must be evaluated on its own. If we appeal instead to "received opinion" or "the consensus of scholars," we are merely abdicating our own responsibility, as well as committing the fallacy of appeal to majority... It matters not whether a particular hypothesis comports easily with the majority paradigm or with one's own other hypotheses. Since all must be but tentatively and provisionally held anyway, we must follow the evidence wherever it seems to be taking us in this or that particular case." -Dr. Robert M. Price


7:51 Mr. Owens next moves on to the NORAD issue. John-Michael Talboo's excellent analysis of the issue of foreknowledge and the lack of air defense is recommended reading for this topic.


Video 2:

At the start of Ryan Owens' next video, he discusses Jason Bermas and his belief in other theories like the moon landing and chemtrails. As gatecreepers.com states in the article Debunking Myths on Conspiracy Theories:

Myth #4: Conspiracy theorists believe in UFOs / Aliens / Apollo Moon / Holocaust denial

This is a straw man and an ad hominem fallacy. Not all conspiracy theorists believe in the same things, nor does believing in aliens invalidate their arguments on other theories. The only thing linking these things is that they are all perceived to be conspiracy theories. Each should be evaluated on its own merits.

However, if a theorist bases their beliefs on poor argumentation, then other conspiracy theorists may want to distance themselves from him/her or question that theorist's ability to support their own ideas. Many such people are accused of being deliberately planted to discredit other theories, a technique called the 'poisoned well'. The media then proceeds to discredit an entire investigative movement based on a few silly theories - a strawman attack.

When the media lumps anybody who doesn't trust the government version of 9-11 into the category of flat earthers and holocaust deniers, any real conspiracy there might have been is given the ultimate defense. Namely, a pre-emptive, universal ad hominem on anyone who would dare talk about it publicly, the archetypal 'tin foil hatter'.


1:52 The next issue brought up in the video is the white plane seen at the WTC. In all likelihood, the presence of that plane was not evidence of a conspiracy.

2:50 Mr. Owens next brings up the issue of molten metal at Ground Zero. He points out that John Gross never denied molten metal at the site, just molten steel. This is obviously still quite absurd, as numerous witnesses on the site claimed to have seen molten steel.



And it seems even Leslie Robertson denied molten metal at Ground Zero.



Mr. Owens dismisses the molten metal at Ground Zero, claiming that metals such as copper, lead and aluminum were present at the site and could easily have melted. Oh really? Hot enough to melt lead, but to vaporize it?

“The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool.” –RJ Lee Group, WTC Dust Signature, 2004, page 12 (Lead boils and vaporizes at about 1749°C [3180°F])


As Steven Jones has pointed out:

"[T]he observed surface of this metal is still reddish-orange some six weeks after 9-11. This implies a large quantity of a metal with fairly low heat conductivity and a relatively large heat capacity (e.g., iron is more likely than aluminum) even in an underground location."


Mr. Owens claims that even if the temperatures at Ground Zero had reached 2750°F, this still would not be surprising, since that temperature has been reached in other underground fires. This article by Andrea Dreger provides detailed rebuttals to attempts to explain the extreme and persistent high temperatures in the Ground Zero rubble piles as the results of fires rather than of energetic materials used to demolish the buildings.

6:11 Mr. Owens then claims that the highest temperatures recorded by the thermal imaging was 1342°F. This is false. To date, there is still no explanation for the high temperatures and the molten metal at Ground Zero.

7:36 The next part of Mr. Owens' video brings up the FEMA article mentioned by Jason Bermas. Listen to what Jason actually said about this issue.



Mr. Owens finishes up by saying that the molten metal is not even evidence for demolition. On the contrary, the extreme heat and molten metal at Ground Zero is evidence of the use of high-tech aluminothermics, which could have been used to demolish the Towers.

Video 3:

The beginning of Ryan Owens' last video deals with thermate, Steven Jones and molten steel from WTC2, all of which he claims he's debunked in his other videos. I of course have already refuted most of his major videos.

With regards to Steven Jones, after I pointed out the errors in Ryan's video on thermate in my open letter, here is how he responded (with my comments in red):

The video was made in December 2007 (and was actually just an updated version of the one I'd made about 6 months prior), which was based on a 204 page/slide PowerPoint presentation that Steven Jones had been giving, when he was still claiming it was thermate. In that presentation he wasn't talking about microspheres or red chips at all, it was all about thermate and chemicals found in the dust. This is simply wrong. Dr. Jones has, to the best of my knowledge, always talked about the iron spheres when discussing his thermite hypotheses. He certainly was discussing them at the Rebuilding America's Senses event, a clip of which you show at the beginning of your video. In his slide presentations, he discusses the spheres in great detail.





It was only later that he changed his version of the truth (for the third time) and started talking about nanothermite and microspheres (which, by the way, form completely naturally in ordinary office fires and the EPA had already released a lengthy report explaining the microspheres in December 2003, literally years and years before Jones had ever even heard of them). The EPA actually discussed using the spheres as one of the signature components to distinguish WTC dust from so-called “background” dust (i.e. common office-building dust).
By that time I felt no need to keep making videos debunking every new version of the truth that Steven Jones came up with. First, it was thermite (which I debunked). Then, "No no, it was thermate!" (which I debunked). Then, "No no, it was nanothermite!" Even more recently, he seems to have changed his story yet AGAIN and now claims that it was traditional explosives all along, and if nanothermite was involved at all then it was just to be used as a detonator to set off the explosives (which, by the way, it a completely ridiculous theory since there are already detonators for explosives which work perfectly well and reliably and there would be no need to invent "nanothermite detonators"... but, that's Steven Jones for ya). This sort of nonsensical criticism has already been thoroughly addressed.
None of this changes the fact that the current information in your video is incorrect. Your claims about thermate have long been debunked, and I highly recommend that you either add disclaimers to your video or remove it entirely. I also recommend you look at this, regarding your criticism of the nanothermite discovery.



0:10 Mr. Owens brings up the molten metal flowing from WTC2, claiming it to be aluminum. He has already been refuted on this point.

1:56 At this point Ryan discusses how Popular Mechanics was only a magazine article, and that it didn't state NIST's official conclusions. This seems quite rich, considering that Mr. Owens kept his WTC7 video up for over two years with outdated material after the NIST final report came out. It was only after I addressed him on the issue did he make any changes.

4:11 From this point on Ryan discusses Barry Jennings and Michael Hess, and claims truthers are lying about their experiences on 9/11. Here's an excellent analyzation of their story and a debunking of the BBC piece that Ryan references.

Ryan claims Barry Jennings stated that he believed the explosion he felt was the collapse of WTC1. Here's the reality (relevant part is at minute 16:27):



7:00 Ryan then finishes his film with just a series of insults, and discusses polls on the Truth Movement. The fact of the matter is that polls show broad skepticism among Americans of official 9/11 narrative.


Conclusion

Mr. Owens' film is nothing more than three-part series of petty insults and childish jokes. He has been proven wrong numerous times, and should be seen as debunked and exposed.

Thursday, May 5, 2011

They REALLY oughta know better


Critiques of claims made by several prominent and semi-prominent 9/11 debunkers

-Joseph Nobles/boloboffin of AE911Truth.INFO-
Joseph Nobles’ claims about “free fall” shown to be false.

Mr. Nobles attempts to refute NASA engineer Dwain Deet’s website 7problemswithbuilding7. I show his claims to be false and misleading.

My critique of Mr. Nobles’ “The Big Three: Parts 1, 2 and 3.”

Mr. Nobles claims that other skyscraper fires are not comparable to the Twin Towers and Building 7. I show this assertion to be false.

My take on Mr. Nobles’ claims about thermal conductivity and the eutectic steel.

Mr. Nobles responds to my many refutations of his claims. I respond back here, here, and here.

Joseph Nobles criticizes AE911Truth and Tom Sullivan's credentials. Darcy Wearing and John-Michael Talboo respond.

My thoughts on Joseph Nobles' criticisms of the BuildingWhat? site.

Nobles claims that that the explosion in the 'Seven’s Exploding' video is fake. John-Michael Talboo shows otherwise.


-Mark "Gravy" Roberts-

My extensive critique of Mark Roberts’ video “WTC Not a Demolition.”

Honest mistakes are apparently “big news” to Mark Roberts.

Mark Roberts: 9/11 "Debunker" or just Dishonest?

Mark Roberts debates with Richard Gage of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth on Hardfire.

Scootle Royale and John-Michael Talboo address Mark Roberts’ assertion that the red/gray chips are primer paint.

Mark Roberts claims that “no one said the air at Ground Zero was safe to breathe."

He oughta know better: Mark Roberts and the iron spherules.

Email debates, and more about Mark Roberts.


-NASA engineer Ryan Mackey-

Jim Hoffman critiques Ryan Mackey’s essay “On Debunking 9/11 Debunking.”

Mackey insists that the initial tilt of the upper section of the North Tower explains the lack of deceleration in the North Tower. Scootle Royale and I explain why he is incorrect.

Mechanical engineer Tony Szamboti questions Ryan Mackey about claims he made during their Hardfire debate.


-Protec employee Brent Blanchard-

Jim Hoffman replies to Blanchard’s paper “A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE COLLAPSE OF WTC TOWERS 1, 2 & 7 FROM AN EXPLOSIVES AND CONVENTIONAL DEMOLITION INDUSTRY VIEWPOINT”

Blanchard constantly claims that parts of explosives such as det cord should have been found in the debris. However, a phone conversation with Dr. Steven Jones suggests otherwise.

Former Controlled Demolition Inc. explosives loader Tom Sullivan on Blanchard’s claims about finding parts of explosives in the debris.

Andrea Dreger on Blanchard’s claims about molten metal at Ground Zero. Pg. 145


-Mike Williams of 911myths.com-

John-Michael Talboo examines Mike Williams’ claims about intercepts and the NORAD stand-down.

Forum poster Beached critiques numerous claims made by Mike Williams.*Note: I do not agree with everything on this page.

Mike Williams takes on Pakistan's ISI link to the 9/11 funding. Here’s the other side of the argument. More on this subject here.


-Physical chemist Dr. Frank Greening-

Dr. Greening makes a lazy attempt at refuting the Active Thermitic Material paper. Dr. Steven Jones responds.

Dr. Greening hypothesizes that there could have been natural thermite reactions within the WTC buildings. Mechanical engineer Gordon Ross addresses these claims.

Dr. Frank Legge addresses Dr. Greening’s criticisms of David Chandler’s analysis of WTC 1’s collapse.

David Chandler responds to Dr. Greening’s letter regarding Newton’s 3rd Law and falling buildings.

Andrea Dreger on Dr. Greening’s article “Aluminum and the World Trade Center Disaster.” Pg. 113

Dr. Greening’s theories about what caused the sulfidation of WTC steel are put to the test by civil engineer Jonathan Cole.


-Explosives expert Ron Craig-

David Menzies and Ron Craig Debunk WTC Demolition*


Ron Craig debates with Richard Gage of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth.

Former explosives loader Tom Sullivan on Ron Craig’s claims about explosives causing damage to other buildings.


-Mathematician Dave Thomas-

Analysis of Dave Thomas’ debate with Richard Gage, including comments by mechanical engineer Tony Szamboti.

Further analysis of the claims made by Dave Thomas during his debate with Richard Gage.

Tony Szamboti comments on Dave Thomas’ physics model of the WTC collapse.


-Pat Curely and James B. of Screw Loose Change-

Pat Curley debates with 9/11 truth activist Jon Gold.

Pat Curley attempts to debunk the "rebunkers." John-Michael Talboo responds.

After 16 months of debunking Screw Loose Change, James B. comments on the Debunking the Debunkers blog to discuss pretty girls.

Pat Curley: the king of scientific peer-review.

Pat Curley attempts to cast doubt on the results of the Active Thermitic Material paper. John-Michael Talboo demonstrates why he is wrong.

Pat Curley claims that Steven Jones makes a strawman argument, but only exposes his own failed logic and poor research.

James B. claims that “trutherism is a mythology, not a science.” I show why he is completely wrong.

Pat Curley attempts to discredit Sibel Edmonds. John-Michael Talboo exposes his errors.

Pat Curley misrepresents the firefighter testimony and then accuses 9/11 truthers of doing the same thing.

Pat Curley attempts to use the firefighter testimony to prove WTC7 was engulfed in flames. John-Michael Talboo shows why he is wrong.

James B. and Pat Curley attempt to discredit the film Zeitgeist and 9/11 truth through association to a killer. Scootle Royal and I show why these claims are baseless.


-Dr. Zdenek Bazant-

Structural engineer Anders Björkman’s discussion of Bazant’s paper "What Did and Did not Cause Collapse of WTC Twin Towers in New York."

Chemical engineer James Gourley’s discussion of Bazant’s paper “Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions.”


-Physicist Manuel Garcia-

Jim Hoffman critiques Manuel Garcia’s articles on 9/11. Part 1. Part 2. Part 3.

Dr. David Griscom addresses Dr. Manuel’s CounterPunch articles on the WTC collapses.

Francisco González comments on Garcia's Sept. 12, 2007 article in CounterPunch.

Dr. Crockett Grabbe on Dr. Garcia’s WTC arguments.

Kevin Ryan shows that Manuel Garcia sees physics that don’t exist.


-Dr. Keith Seffen-

Dr. Crockett Grabbe’s discussion of Dr. Seffen’s paper "Progressive Collapse of the World Trade Center: A Simple Analysis."


-Joseph Welch-

Stewart Bradley responds to Joseph Welch's "15 questions 9/11 ‘truthers’ now need to answer."


Youtube debunkers
---------------------------


-Ryan Owens/RKOwens4-

Ryan Owens’ debunking videos refuted by my “9/11 Un-debunked” series. Version 1. Version 2.

My open letter to Ryan Owens.

My comments on Mr. Owens’ response to my open letter.

John-Michael Talboo shows Ryan Owens that controlled demolition is possible.

Ryan Owens debates with Debunking the Debunkers blog contributor Stewart Bradley.

Ryan Owens accuses me of taking money for my 9/11 videos. I inform him that he is incorrect.

Jason Bermas addresses Ryan Owens’ claims about the temperatures in the Ground Zero debris.

Mr. Owens makes numerous assertions about WTC7’s collapse. I show his claims to be wrong.

The US State Department uses one of Ryan Owens’ videos as “debunking” of 9/11 controlled demolition theories.


-AlienEntity-

John-Michael Talboo refutes AlienEntity’s video “Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth: Lies and Distortions,” then debates with him on the subject.

AlienEntity claims his measurements corroborate NIST’s results. I show why he’s wrong.


-Dan Stevens/dsglop-

Dan Stevens appears in Nathan Moulten’s film “Activist.”

Dan Stevens attempts to answer Charlie Sheen’s 20 Questions to Obama. I show why his answers are nonsense.


-K.T. Penn/loosechangeexposed-

My refutation of many of K.T. Penn’s claims.

The many absurd beliefs of K.T. Penn.


-deRoyLight-

Stewart Bradley addresses deRoy's video "Defusing Nanothermite: Integrity."


-dprjones-

Stewart Bradley addresses dprjones' video "Advice and a challenge for 9/11 'truthers'"

Tuesday, February 10, 2009

DEBUNKING "9/11 Debunked: Thermate Chemical Signatures Disproven" rkOWNED

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWpC_1WP8do
This is a response to a video created by YouTube user RKOwens4 which attempts to debunk Steven Jones. Hilarious coming from someone with no degree or experience in physics or chemistry.
Yet a lot of people automatically assume it's true because it's debunking. And conspiracy theorists are tin foil hat crazies, with no scientific knowledge.

Well they're in for a surprise if they actually read professors, engineers and chemists like Steven Jones' papers.

So let's start with the misconceptions this rkowens displays.

First off
Debunkers are confusing WTC dust with IRON SPHERES found [IN THE DUST].
There is a BIG DIFFERENCE.
The Spheres show that the chemicals were formed due to melting and/or vapourisation, this is due to surface tension. When a liquid is formed the surface tension of the liquid forms a sphere.
Just like when you spray water you will notice many small spheres forming.

This is important as the SPHERES not the dust has the chemical signature of a variation of thermate.
This indicated the various chemicals found in the spheres were melted at the SAME TIME. Forming spheres. The spheres found had chemical signature of FE, AL, K, SI. And various additives and variations of the thermate was found.
Including sulpur, copper, manganese.
Different aluminothermic reactions have different properties, some are faster reacting, like sulpur which reduces the melting point of steel.

What other mechanism can make fe, al, k, si melt at the same time to form spheres?
Debunkers like to beleive the iron came from steel, the aluminium came from cladding and silicon from glass, etc.

Forming from office fire is impossible, for a start iron cannot melt in office fires and the melting points of these metals are so different, there would be a sizeable time delay from heating WTC common materials. Then they also have to cool together at the same time to form a sphere.
Thermate however provides the solution to this question because the reaction is very fast. No other mechanism is known to provide spheres such as these.

Secondly rkowned is confusing Steven Jones arbitrary usage of the word thermate with military grade (Thermate-TH3 (in military use) is 68.7% thermite, 29.0% barium nitrate, 2.0% sulfur )
There are a wide variety of different types of thermate, thermite, and other aluminothermic reactions. In fact all you need is a metal oxide whose metal is lower in the reactivity series than aluminium to create such a reaction. As the aluminium steals the oxygen from the oxide.
Iron is the most common form of aluminothermic reaction, this is known as thermite.

So finding barium nitrate in spheres is not at all necessary for a thermate reaction.
Finding aluminium oxide and iron or other metal as a single sphere is.

It turns out nano-thermite and thermate was used, the chemical signature found in unexploded red chips of nano-thermite, DO MATCH known government combinations.

RKowned claims aluminium oxide was not found, but he obviously has not looked at the WTC iron spheres X-EDS which clearly all show aluminium oxide.

Another bunk claim of rkowned is his claim that sulphur was from gypsum.Gypsum however is used as fireproofing because of its molecular stability.
However the chemical signature of gypsum is not found in any WTC iron spheres as there is NO CALCIUM.

gypsum
As you can see Gypsum CaS04 is not responsible for sulphur found in the iron microspheres.

Related Info:

Face off with the Debunkers, Part 2 - Ryan Owens

Debunking Molten Aluminium Flow From South Tower

Controlled Demolition Not Possible?

9/11 Debunkers: Meet RKOwens4

RE: What the Heck is Jason Bermas talking about?

The 9/11 Un-debunked Series

Sunday, January 11, 2009

Face off with the Debunkers, Part 2 - Ryan Owens

I first learned of Ryan Owens work from critics of my own videos who would say things like,"All your Twoofer nonsense has already been busted by RKOwens4." So over several months I began watching his work finding many factual errors, unfounded speculation, and deceptive misrepresentations of 9/11 research. After watching his "Top 7 9/11 Conspiracy Theories Debunked in under 1 minute" I decided to respond to his claims with a video of my own. Ryan Owens contacted me shortly after I posted the video and began the exchange that follows:

Stewart Bradley:
Thanks for responding. First, I hope you aren't offended by my response to your video. I have been a subscriber of yours for a while and have watched most of your videos, so I know you are very knowledgeable about 9/11 and are one of the most popular debunkers on YouTube. Although I don't agree with some of your arguments and conclusions, I do have a sincere respect for you, and hoped we could have an open and honest exchange of ideas here.

A little about myself; I've been researching "deep politics" as a freelance journalist/ film maker for about 20 years following the work of people like James Bamford, Peter Dale Scott, Jim Marrs, and Gary Webb. In my 7 years investigation of the 9/11 attack I believe there is significant evidence of an LIHOP operation involving a handful of Bush administration officials. I also think there are enough anomalies concerning the collapse of the WTC buildings and the Pentagon crash to merit further investigation, but I try to focus in the questionable actions of key Bush officials as the most compelling argument to reopen the 9/11 case. This is laid out in the video "9/11 Cheney Connection" which I will attach. This is just the rough version, I already know of a few minor details that need to be clarified, but I'd be very interested to hear your take on it.

You may find it ironic, but I do appreciate your videos because I agree that there are WAY too many ridiculous claims and misinformation about 9/11. When these "Truthers" exaggerate and speculate it destroys their own credibility. But I must take exception with your portrayal of ALL 9/11 research as false, and all Truthers as either liars or nuts. There are many of us who take this subject very seriously and work very hard to separate the facts from the deceptions. We are genuinely concerned that we have not been told the truth about 9/11 and we want to, as you say,"save the historical accuracy of 9/11."

I do not doubt you have the best of intentions in trying to expose the errors in 9/11 theories, but I do find some of your arguments mis-repesent the claims of legitimate researchers and will jump to your own simplistic conclusions that do not match all the facts. Many of the sources you quote I would consider to be biased, other times I have to wonder what your sources are because they aren't listed. 9/11 is a complicated and emotional subject. I know how difficult it can be to remain impartial when presented with information that we do not want to believe.

So I hope you don't take it personally if I critique your work. I do promise to be fair and constructive because I'm sure you would do the same for my research. Even if we may disagree I hope we can maintain a civil debate. And my super quick response to the "Top 7 Theories" - nobody's perfect. We can only do the best with what we have. Right?

Ryan Owens:
You say that some of my arguments mis-represent the claims of legitimate researchers. Could you tell me exactly how this is so? I know there are many bizarre theories out there that the majority of 9/11 truthers don't subscribe to, like the no-plane theories or the "death ray from outer space" theory which Jim Fetzer and Judy Wood push. But I choose not to waste my time on these theories since they aren't representative of the mainsteam truth movement in the first place. If I made videos saying that the majority of truthers believe all videos of the planes hitting the World Trade Center were faked and/or mini-nukes took down the towers, then that would be misrepresenting truthers. But how am I misrepresenting anything?

Anyhow, what do you think is the strongest piece of evidence that 9/11 was an inside job (or that it was allowed to happen)?

SB:
Thanks for writing back. I'll try to keep this short and direct.
In reference to mis-representing Truther claims, I'm referring to things like "no 93 wreckage found, WTC at 75% tenancy, calling 77 pilot Burlingame a terrorist, flight 93 lands in Chicago, and other things I have never heard from my fellow researchers. I don't doubt that there may some misguided people out there making such claims, but I wouldn't consider these common Truther beliefs.

I am more concerned about when your conclusions contradict the facts. Just a few examples that I have recently spotted: In your "No Free fall Speed" video you claim South Tower collapse time at 15.28 and North Tower at 22.02. This conflicts with NIST's findings.

Section 6 states - "NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NCSTAR 1-5A)"

Apparently they found your method of timing inaccurate saying,"Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely."

I sympathize with you because I have also found NIST's findings to be wrong in many ways, but if you disagree with NIST's collapse times you should have attributed these times to NIST and not just Rosie O'Donnel.

And from videos like "Molten Metal Explained" and "No Pools of Molten Metal" you claim that the there was no molten steel, just molten aluminum. But I have never heard you address the WPI metallurgical study of WTC steel done for the FEMA investigation, which indeed found steel had melted by eutectic reactions, which caused "intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese." I can't fault you for not knowing about the study because FEMA buried it in appendix C of their final report and NIST totally ignored it, but you can read it here.

You argue against the evidence of controlled demolitions because you couldn't hear explosioins. Yet both the WPI tests of WTC steel and Lioy tests of dust samples point to aluminothermic arson. True, while low-tech thermite would not account for the violent reaction seen in WTC, various engineered forms of aluminothermic materials have explosive power WITHOUT THE NOISE of conventional explosives. These are called energetic nanocomposites or metastable intermolecular composites.

But the strongest evidence I cite is the 4 fold;
1. Evidence the Bush administration planned before 9/11 to invade Afghanistan in October
yet lacked permission ( justification ) from public or Congress for any military action,

2. Evidence of ignored 9/11 warnings and obstruction of FBI investigations,

3. Evidence of NORAD obstruction and official misconduct,

4. Evidence of blocked 9/11 investigations and manipulation of 9/11 Commission.

I have no doubt that you would consider many of these websites biased, but please check their source links to confirm their validity. I am not suggesting that the Bush administration was involved in the planning of the attack, but when you consider the overwhelming amount of evidence it is difficult to escape the conclusion of Bush administration complicity. I suspect this notion may conflict with your ideology, but I hope you try to remain impartial and give this case a fair assessment.

I am also attaching a video below that conflicts with your information. Out of curiosity, how much of your research are you getting from sites like 911myths.com, wtc7lies.googlepages.com, or debunking911.com? I am not judging a bias here, I get a great deal of my information from 911research.wtc7.net and books by David Ray Griffin. It is difficult to find truly impartial sources so we can only try our best to stay true to the facts.

RO:
1.) Neither of the NIST reports, the one on the Twin Towers or the most recent one on WTC7, provides a detailed timeline for the collapse of the Twin Towers. You quote them on a comment in their FAQ section about the time it took for the first PANEL to hit the ground. No one is going to dispute that the panels fell at free-fall speed. Of course they did. But the building itself it another matter. However, this is much more tricky since dust and falling debris obscures the view of the buildings at about 11.5 seconds - in both instances. This is one reason the NIST report doesn't time the collapses. I don't pretend that my estimation is the official timeline for the collapse, but watch the videos and judge for yourself based on audio as well as the fact that huge portions of the towers are clearly still intact at 11.5 seconds (30 floors for WTC2, about 45 for WTC1). 11.5 itself is not free-fall speed, and even that's ignoring the fact that the collapse clearly isn't complete at 11.5 seconds.

SB:
"I sympathize with you because I have also found NIST's findings to be wrong in many ways, but if you disagree with NIST's collapse times you should have attributed these times to NIST and not just Rosie O'Donnell." (last post)

I should clarify my disagreement with your "No Free fall Speed" video:
You start by saying "...conspiracy theorists claim the World Trade Center towers collapsed at free-fall speed." Although the careful Truther will usually specify "almost free-fall speed" if they pay attention to the details. But then you back this up with a clip of Rosie O'Donnell saying "9 seconds".

I feel that this is misleading the viewer to assume that it was the conspiracy theorists who created this claim when the collapse time was based on NIST's estimates. You are absolutely correct that NIST does not provide a detailed timeline, which they should have, but the FAQ section supporting these collapse times is NIST's approved product.

Page 305 of the Kean Commission report also states,"At 9:58:59, the South Tower collapsed in ten seconds". It is not just conspiracy theorists who claim the "almost free-fall speed" collapse time, but it is promoted by the official investigations as well.

So when you attack the claim in your video, you are attacking the findings of NIST while only damaging the credibility of conspiracy theorists. This may seem a minor and petty point, but little details like this do influence your viewers opinion of Truthers as being deceptive, yet NIST and the official account as being trustworthy. And let's be honest here, influencing viewers opinions are what most political videos are about.

To your credit, I don't disagree that your total collapse times are more accurate than NIST's estimation, although you avoid the same question that NIST avoided in their FAQs. In stead of asking why the towers collapsed at "nearly free-fall speed?", the more relevant question is "why did the intact floors below the collapse offer little more resistance than thin air?" This is what defies both the law of "Conservation of Momentum" and Conservation of Energy."

Simply put, it is physically impossible for a "gravitational collapse" to proceed through so many undamaged stories below the impact zone, the path of maximum resistance, in anywhere near the same amount of time as it takes to free-fall from the same height.

It's an argument I'm sure you've heard before, but I have yet to see this adequately explained by either NIST or debunking videos. If have any, or know of any, I would be very interested in seeing them, but I still believe the LIHOP case to be the strongest evidence of complicity.

RO:
What is the Kean Commission? Do you mean the 9/11 Commission? (I had someone at Ground Zero say this. Maybe he was changing its name to make it sound less credible.) If so, this is not an engineering report. It did absolutely no investigation into the engineering aspects of the World Trade Center (that job was given to NIST, which published its first report a little over a year later). Anyone who watches the videos can see that neither building collapsed in 10 seconds. 10 seconds in the context of a political report is an anecdotal term. TV documentaries on 9/11 also often say 10 seconds, but these are not engineering reports.

For the last time, NIST does not suggest that the towers fell at free-fall speed. It says that the free-falling panels fell at free-fall speed, not the buildings themselves. The recent final report on WTC7 does provide a detailed timeline of the collapse for WTC7 and found that it didn't collapse at free-fall speed. The same report also times a part of the collapse of the North Tower, but the latest timing into its collapse is at 14 seconds, when the height of the part of the building remaining intact is level to the height of the roof of WTC7. (It gets too difficult to see after this point.) In other words, you can say that the official timeline for the collapse of one of the Twin Towers (WTC1) is at least 14 seconds, but likely well over that since roughly 47 floors are still intact.

Also, 15-20 seconds might still seem faster than expected, but you have to look at the unique design of the Twin Towers and the way they collapsed. The buildings were a tube in a tube design, with no columns anywhere throughout the floors themselves other than the core and perimeter columns. When the floors collapsed, they pancaked (don't confuse pancake collapse with pancake theory, which was rejected). The cores in both cases mostly remained standing, and the perimeter columns mostly peeled outward like banana peelings, to the SIDE of the pancaking floors, rather than UNDER them. Because there were no columns under the actual floor slabs, they probably collapsed faster than they would if the building was a more traditional design. Still, 15-20 seconds is NOT free-fall speed!

SB:
Again from my last post- "To your credit, I don't disagree that your total collapse times are more accurate than NIST's estimation, although you avoid the same question that NIST avoided in their FAQs."

Yes, by Kean Commission I refer to the 9/11 Commission Chaired by Thomas Kean. Did you really not know that?

As I already said, I do not contest that your estimate of 15-20 seconds is more accurate than NIST's often repeated claim of about 10 seconds, but 15-20 seconds is still to fast to account for the laws of "Conservation of Momentum" and Conservation of Energy. I would like to learn more about your theory that the perimeter columns peeled out leaving the core "mostly standing". Can you source that for me so I can see the calculations that explain this. If what you say is true then this building design lacked any safety redundancies and would never have passed NY building safety codes.

But I am willing to cede to you the WTC building collapse completely to focus on the LIHOP case that you still have not addressed. Fair enough?

RO:
I know who Thomas Kean is, but the name of the commission is the 9/11 Commission. I think that truthers think they can make the report sound less credible by calling it something like the Kean Commission. Bizarre, really. And pointless. Call it what it's called.

I've told you this three times already, and you keep ignoring it. Ready for a fourth time? Here we go! The NIST report did not conclude that the buildings fell in 11 seconds, only that it took 11 seconds for the free-falling panels to begin hitting the ground. (The building itself, according to the NIST report, took well over 14 seconds.) You do know the difference between panels (debris) and the building, right? If so, why do you keep confusing the two? Is it intentional? Deliberate? Are we going to have to go over this a fifth time?

The building did not fail to meet NY safety codes at all. No building in the world, either in the 1960s when the towers began construction or even today, is required to be able to withstand the impact of a jetliner. Yet, the WTC was designed for this anyway and withstood the impacts of the jetliners (travelling faster than even designed for) remarkably well, saving tens of thousands of lives. Any other building probably wouldn't have been able to withstand the impact and would have collapsed instantly. The World Trade Center went ABOVE AND BEYOND the code, so don't say they failed to meet basic standards. You have no idea what you're talking about. Name one thing about the World Trade Center which was below code. (You made this claim and gave no specific example, implying that just because it collapsed it was below code.) The Titanic went above all codes (by far) and still sank. It's fine if you want to believe LIHOP, since we can only speculate rather than prove or disprove it one way or the other.

SB:
Look Ryan, I am not trying to fight with you here but you seem stuck on this point.
I have already told you twice that I agree that your estimates of the tower collapse are more accurate. Get it, I agree with you on that.

And I asked very politely for some source information on your "banana peel" theory because it was a theory I had not seen and want to know more about. I'm not above the idea that I have overlooked something in the towers design and want to know how this theory explains what happened. Do you have a source that I can study?

The source I used to study the collapse was mechanical engineer Gordon Ross who calculated both the velocity (8.5 meters per second) and the kinetic energy (2.1 GJ) of the 16 upper floors after falling a story (3.7 meters), Ross concluded that the impact would absorb so much energy that "vertical movement of the falling section would be arrested within 0.02 seconds after impact".

I said I would give up the WTC argument completely to talk about the LIHOP evidence. All the elements of a criminal case; motive, opportunity, and evidence, are there. If you don't think so, can you please tell me why? That's what I'm asking.

I hoped we could have a civil and constructive discussion here. If you don't want to discuss the LIHOP case, fine, just say so and we can move onto other topics like the WPI study proving molten steel.

No response from Ryan Owens.

SB:
Again, I do hate to be a bother but since you are one of the most respected debunkers on YouTube, I really wanted your take on the LIHOP case. Thanks!

End of messages and again a complete refusal by a "debunking expert" to acknowledge the LIHOP case.

Thanks to JMT for all his inspiration and support...... Stewart Bradley

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