In a recent post entitled "Oh, The Irony!," Pat Curley of the Screw Loose Change blog asserted that David Ray Griffin omits testimonial evidence from the FDNY, which Pat believes indicates that they knew WTC 7 was going to collapse because of structural damage. The fact of the matter is, Griffin does not ignore this testimony, he just doesn't view it in the same way.
"Extracts from a recent Peter B Collins' interview with Professor David Ray Griffin about Building 7's thoroughly implausible collapse on 9/11."
On December 17, 2008 Pat posted the following statement by Graham MacQueen:
Occasionally "debunkers" have criticized me for my work on the Towers, sneering that I’m just a religious studies prof -- often they mistakenly say theologian -- and don’t know anything about engineering. [However], I’ve never pretended to be an engineer or a physicist. My main contributions have been in the analysis of texts, which I’m obviously trained for. The main body of texts I’ve concentrated on is the oral histories of the New York Fire Department, which constitute about 10,000 pages of very rich material. When, on occasion, I do research that requires skill in engineering, I ask engineers to help me. I’m currently completing an article with a co-author who is an engineer.To which Pat replied, "Tell us, Graham, what do you think about the oral history from John Peruggia? Don't you think it pretty much rules out controlled demolition of the towers? Don't you think it explains where Rudy Giuliani got his information that the towers were going to collapse?"
Apparently Pat was not aware that this testimony was addressed in MacQueen's paper "Waiting for Seven: WTC 7 Collapse Warnings in the FDNY Oral Histories," published one month prior to his blog.
MacQueen quotes Peruggia:
I was in a discussion with Mr. Rotanz and I believe it was a representative from the Department of Buildings, but I'm not sure. Some engineer type person, and several of us were huddled talking in the lobby and it was brought to my attention, it was believed that the structural damage that was suffered to the towers was quite significant and they were very confident that the building's stability was compromised and they felt that the north tower was in danger of a near imminent collapse.MacQueen then writes:
I grabbed EMT Zarrillo, I advised him of that information. I told him he was to proceed immediately to the command post where Chief Ganci was located…
When Zarrillo carried Peruggia’s startling news of imminent collapse to Chief Ganci, Ganci’s response was, 'who the fuck told you that?' Ganci had bet the lives of his firefighters on the stability of the Towers. In fact, the lives of hundreds of firefighters had been wagered on the experience of fire chiefs who never suspected collapse. Ganci had almost certainly been told, like Peruggia and others in the FDNY (see Appendix E), that planes could not cause the Towers to collapse. Ganci is dead—he died in the collapse of the North Tower—but his question remains a good one: Who told you that?Nine months after publishing his article MacQueen was proven correct, as nowpublic.com pointed out:
In my view, all three building collapses were peculiar in the extreme, and we have a perfect right to ask who determined that they were going to collapse and on what basis. We need not apologize for asking whether there might have been an 'engineer type person' who told crucial members of the FDNY that Seven’s stability was compromised, after which this warning was passed on and largely accepted by the rank and file.
In an Oct 15, 2008 interview with Allan Rees (following the release of the NIST WTC 7 report), Dr. Shyam Sunder (lead investigator) responded to a question about the evidence of foreknowledge of the collapse of WTC 7 by saying that they were "aware that an engineer or a technical expert or a technical advisor was providing advice to the city agencies with regard to the condition of building 7', and that they had been hearing creaking noises and the area was cleared about 2:30 pm. He refused to name this person, and then implied it may have been more than one "advisor".Debunking the Debunkers blog contributor Adam T. adds:
In fact, apparently someone from the Office of Emergency Management had warned the firefighters about Building 7.
Excerpt from David Ray Griffin's book on WTC 7:
According to Captain Michael Currid, the Uniformed Fire Officers Association's sergeant at arms, he and other FDNY officers at some point went into WTC 7, where four or five fire companies were battling its flames, and yelled up the stairwells: "Drop everything and get out!" He did this, he said, because "[s]omeone from the city's Office of Emergency Management" had told him that WTC 7 was "basically a lost cause and we should not lose anyone else trying to save it."
Interesting that one of the warnings came from Giuliani's Office of Emergency Management, when that very same office also somehow knew the Twin Towers were going to come down.So, these psychic "engineer types" from Giuliani's office are probably where John Peruggia, and unfortunately for Pat's argument, the firefighters got their information. The problem for Giuliani is that when he was confronted on the issue he lied when he said that he "didn't realize the towers would collapse." He also apparently agreed that the story of these fore-tellers of fire causing steel-framed high-rise buildings to collapse for the first time in history was dubious, as he also lied about the very existence of these individuals when he stated that, "No one that I know of had any idea they would implode. That was a complete surprise."
MacQueen has also debunked the notion that truthers are quote mining the FDNY regarding explosions at the Twin Towers:
MacQueen points out in the paper:
...Many members of the FDNY came to believe, in the period between 9/11 and their interviews, that they had been mistaken in interpreting what they perceived as evidence of explosions. Some suggest in their interviews that they now (as of the interview date) realize they witnessed non-explosive collapse, with the implication that they face the task of fitting what they originally perceived into the new framework. A few adopt the new framework readily; others do so reluctantly; and still others are unwilling to do so at all. I have not attempted in Appendix B to delete references to change of mind: on the contrary, I have included them because I find them fascinating and instructive. In some cases we can almost feel the struggle of the interviewee to accept the new interpretive frame.The fact of the matter is, the oral histories were suppressed for nearly four years because they corroborate demolitions, to say otherwise is an exercise in credulity.
Note: "Debunkers" will point out that the audio of the Tower "collapsing" in the above video, which comes from the Discovery Channel's Inside the Twin Towers documentary, is not the correct soundtrack. There has been dispute about this, but I have it on good authority that one of the people involved in the capturing of the video did say the audio on the Discovery Channel piece was not correct. A "debunker" victory? Not so much, because this person also stated the following, "Both myself and the senior fire officers who were with me at the time mentioned in our written statements to the NYPD that we thought their had been an explosion before the tower collapsed."
The "debunkers" can call me a liar if they want, but I'm not, this conversation did take place, unfortunately no agreement was made on quoting this person by name.
So, as we have pointed out on this blog before, the other audio is just as damning.
Highly recommended are the comments by "Anonymous #2" on Pat's post. Whoever you are, you are welcome to join this blog ASAP! You would have to leave most of the insults at their blog though, as funny as they are. ;) firstname.lastname@example.org
In one particular comment this anonymous debunker smasher notes, "everybody in the truth movement knows that the firefighters were warned that WTC 7 was going to 'come down' or be 'brought down'. (E.g. FDNY Rastuccio) Exactly where those warnings were ultimately coming from, is unclear..."
To which one of Pat's regulars Lazarus Long responded, "who mentioned 'brought down', when and where. Who said it, fucktartd?"
Anonomous#2 responds, "E.g. Indira Singh, FDNY Lt. David Rastuccio. Do your fucking homework, neanderthal."
Here are those accounts.
Bryan Hunt, FDNY, retired 8-15 YearsFor a debunking of the debunkers on all the issues surrounding WTC 7 please view this film by blog contributor AdamT., based largely on the research and information from David Ray Griffin's book The Mysterious Collapse of World Trade Center 7: Why the Official Final Report About 9/11 is Unscientific and False.
I retired from FDNY in 1998. I knew many of the guys who died in the WTC collapses. May they rest in peace. I've read tons of information re. the deaths of my brothers on 9/11. I've watched the videos, listened to the rantings on both sides. It wasn't until 2006 that I began questioning the "official story" and did my own research. There is bad info on both sides, but I've concluded that the "official story" doesn't add up. It sounds like a whitewash. The 9/11 Commission didn't investigate anything--they just took statements. We need a real, independent investigation, with supeona powers. If the "offical" version is correct, so be it. And if heads are going to roll at any level of the government or military, so be it. Let's do it, and let's not be afraid of the truth. The brothers deserve that much. - Source: FireFightersFor911Truth.org