"Definitive, documented, incisive and dead-on analysis in 5 volumes, - Doug Horne's scholarship is so far beyond the ken of his critics that
they would do well to read his books, learn from them, and apologize to
him. His work should, and I believe eventually will be, recognized as
the most comprehensive, definitive and documented collection of 'what we
know' about the hijacking of the American government in the 1963
tragedy we refer to as 'the Kennedy assassination.' The truth will out." - Steven Kossor
"Doug Horne's Inside the Assassination Records
Review Board (IARRB) is the most important book to be published on the
assassination of President Kennedy in decades, not only because it
changes the way we look at that murder, but in showing how the remaining
issues can be resolved by determining the truth.
All the debates
end here, and the arguments are replaced with questions that were posed
but not answered when the Assassination Records Review Board was alive
and ostensibly overseeing the declassification and release of the
government's JFK assassination records... " - Bill Kelly
The Kennedy Assassination - Jim Marrs Interviews Doug Horne
Excerpt:
JM: So what you are telling us is that
these alterations, these shenanigans as you called them, they certainly
could not have been done by Lee Harvey Oswald, or by the Russians, or
the by the Mafia, or by the anti-Castro Cubans, right?
DH:
Exactly...
DREAMLAND with Whitley Strieber
UnknownCountry.com
February 20, 2010
The Kennedy Assassination
Doug
Horne was the Chief Military Analyst for the Assassination Records
Review Board that was delegated to study the Kennedy assassination by
Congress in 1992. Here, Jim Marrs interviews him, and he says, quite
frankly, "there was massive fraud in the evidence," and that the autopsy
results released after the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital are
false, and conceal an exit wound that prove the fact that he was struck
by a bullet from the front, as well as the ones that hit him in the back
of the head.
This will be the most extraordinary interview about
the Kennedy Assassination that you have ever heard. Listen as a man in a
unique position to know the truth talks about how the real autopsy
reports have been destroyed, and the available documents are forgeries.
He
outlines exactly how he discovered this, and creates an airtight case,
and we have this message from Whitley Strieber: "Please, folks, do not
let the Kennedy Assassination go. Listen to this and continue to demand
that your representatives take action. The Review Board came about
because of public pressure on Congress. Demand the truth!"
Jim Marrs's website is
JimMarrs.com.
Jim Marrs Interviews Doug Horne
Bill Kelly
jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com
February 21, 2010
JFK
Assassination researcher Jim Marrs interviewing Doug Horne, Chief
Military Analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board - in
operation from 1994 –1998
JM: = Jim Marrs
DH: = Doug Horne
[ 00:00 - 00:32 – announcer lead in...]
00:32:
JM:
Howdy, I’m your host today here on Dreamland, on a very special
occasion because today we’re going to hear from Doug Horne. Doug was the
chief Military analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board, and
to just set the stage, let me explain that in the wake of the Kennedy
Assassination, of course, within a week the new President, Lyndon
Johnson hand picked a committee headed by Chief Justice Earl Warren and
called the Warren Commission - prominent people on there such as John J.
McCloy, Allan Dulles, who I found particularly interesting since
Kennedy had fired Dulles from his position of CIA director in the wake
of the failed Bay of Pigs invasion and Gerald Ford, our only unelected
President and some others - and they concluded after about nine months
that the assassination was the work of Lee Harvey Oswald who acted
alone.
This was called into question almost immediately and a few
years later we had the Jim Garrison investigation in New Orleans and
the jury who was polled afterwards, unanimously said that Garrison had
convinced them that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy, but they
could not bring themselves to believe beyond a reasonable shadow of
doubt that Clay Shaw was part of it, so they found him not guilty. But
this raised even more questions particularly with some of the witnesses
and information that came out in the Garrison trial. So then in the mid
70’s Congress founded the House Select Committee on Assassinations, and
they went through a lot of turmoil, changed leadership, and Blakey, the
new Chief Council started off by saying they weren’t going to consider
any new evidence. Anything new they didn’t want to hear about it, but
they would re-examine some of the old evidence, well that forced them
into considering the Dallas Police radio tape which according to two
separate sets of acoustical scientists showed clearly that there had
been shots not only from the School Book Depository but from the
infamous Grassy Knoll.
But, the House Committee said well we’re
out of funds, we’re out of business, and they encouraged the Justice
Department to continue their investigation. This was not done, in fact
all the Justice Department did was convene a handpicked committee of
National Science Academy people who tried to call into question the
Dallas Police tapes. A few years later, in a peer reviewed paper in
England they called into question the conclusions of the National
Academy of Science Committee. So the whole thing has been in controversy
and turmoil ever since. And finally, in the early 90’s we had the
Oliver Stone film “JFK” which was based on Jim Garrison’s book, and my
book “Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy”. And in the wake of the
controversy that stirred up - Congress then named the Assassination
Records Review Board.
And this was a group of citizens who were
tasked to go into government files and find anything that pertained to
the Kennedy Assassination Unfortunately, they were also instructed NOT
to do anything with it, don’t make any conclusions, don’t present any of
their findings or conclusions to the public, just put all the stuff in
the National Archives and maybe twenty or thirty years later some
diligent researcher might actually find something.
Well Doug
Horne is the man. He is not only a diligent researcher, he was the Chief
Military Analyst for the Assassination Records Review Board which put
him right in the thick of what they were finding out about the Kennedy
autopsy, which of course was done at Bethesda Naval Hospital.
And
he even had opportunity to speak with and interview some of the people
involved in the autopsy, and he was also privy to the examination of one
of the most critical pieces of information – evidence – the famous
Zapruder film taken by Abraham Zapruder.
So Doug, I apologize for
that long-winded introduction, but now that we’ve laid the groundwork,
tell us what you found in your work for the Assassination Records Review
Board.
DH: Well, thanks Jim, it’s a pleasure to be here, and
don’t apologize, the case IS a mess and it’s been made into a mess by
all those investigating bodies, so –
What I found Jim, was that,
and these are my conclusions, you know, after working for the Review
Board for the last three years of it’s four year lifespan and my
conclusions after researching and writing this book for thirteen years,
this book “Inside the Assassination Records Review Board”, available on
Amazon.com. It’s my conclusion that the reason the case has never come
together like a normal homicide case is because there’s massive fraud in
the evidence. And, it’s a pretty strong statement to make, but it’s
backed up in my book by overwhelming evidence, of not only fraud in the
evidence. But what that means is a massive cover-up of the medical
evidence by the U.S. Government. And, specifically a cover-up of the
fact that the President was killed by a crossfire and that evidence of
shots from the front was suppressed and only evidence of shots from the
rear was admitted into evidence. So the listeners may be wondering –
well, wat do you mean by fraud in the evidence – and to summarize very
very briefly, without getting inside baseball too much – there are three
skull x-rays of the President, and those three are not originals in the
national archives, they are copy films. They are altered copy films
made from the original skull x-rays and altered in such a manner that
the blowout in the back of the head, the exit wound behind the right
ear, seen in Dallas by all the Doctors and Nurses has been hidden in the
x-rays, it looks like solid bone, but we know they are forgeries.
Number
Two: The autopsy report’s been rewritten at least twice, so the version
in the archives now is the third written version, and the -
particularly disturbing to me is the fact that the brain photographs in
the archives, purported to be of President Kennedy’s brain cannot be of
his brain as proven by the testimony of two key witnesses. The - one of
the FBI Agents who was at the autopsy, Frank O’Neil said - they cant be
of President Kennedy’s brain because there is way too much mass present,
there is too much tissue present in the organ in the photographs. And,
the photographer who took the pictures said - No these can’t be the
pictures I took, because they’re taken on the wrong kind of film and
they are taken from the wrong angles. And they also don’t show the
sections that were made of the brain.
So those are three key areas where there is fraud in the evidence, there are others, but that’s it in a nutshell.
JM:
Okay, so in other words what you are telling me, is that when someone
steps forward and says – yes but look, this government document states
thus and so, you cannot take that to the bank, can you?
DH:
That’s correct Jim. Normally the autopsy report is THE medical legal
record of someone’s death. In this case, it’s not true since we know at
least two written versions of the autopsy report, a typed first draft,
and the first signed version, have been destroyed. The autopsy report
cannot be used to describe how Kennedy died.
JM: Right, Okay. Well that’s Step Number One. We’ll go to step this up to Number Two, right after this.
[- to 8:50 - commercial break]
12:18:
JM:
Howdy, We’re back here today, this is your host Jim Marrs. We’re
talking with Doug Horne, Chief Military Analyst for the Assassination
Records Review Board and he’s just informed us that the autopsy on
President Kennedy has been altered, fabricated, changed, at the level of
the Federal Government. So, Doug, tell us how you KNOW this.
DH:
Sure Jim, we know from the testimony taken of Doctors Humes and Boswell
– there were three pathologists and President Kennedy’s autopsy, two of
them were Navy and they were the lead doctors at the autopsy Doctors
Humes and Boswell. The third guy was kind of an outsider, Dr. Finck
worked for the Army and he arrived late after the autopsy had started
and he was basically a consultant, advising the other, the two Navy men.
So we took the testimony of all three...
JM: Excuse me had any of these military doctors had any kind of extensive experience with gunshot wounds?
DH:
Almost no, no, almost no is the answer. Doctors Humes and Boswell, the
two lead pathologists had no practical experience in forensic autopsies
of people killed by trauma, by gunshot wounds. They had only done
autopsies of people due to natural - death due to natural causes. And
Dr. Finck, the consultant, was a board certified forensic pathologist,
but number one, he arrived late, after much of the work had been done
Number two, he did not do this every day, he only reviewed reports
written by other people. So there was almost no practical experience in
forensic pathology during the autopsy on the 35th president, which is
really appalling. In retrospect I believe this was intentional. You can
steer the conclusions of people who aren’t really qualified in the first
place not only because they are in uniform and are following orders but
because they’re not forensic pathologists, the two lead pathologists
were not , so...
JM: Is it true, that they were – when - I think
it was Finck, or one of the autopsy doctors – there was some argument
going on about what to do, how to do it – and he said – Well who’s in
charge here – and a military officer said – I am – is that true?
DH:
That’s correct. During the Shaw trial, Dr. Finck had a rough time on
the witness stand and the first day he testified he made that statement
under oath, he said – I said, Who’s in charge here – and Dr. Humes – Dr.
Finck recalled that Humes the lead pathologist had said – Who’s in
charge here – you know, irritated with all the interference during the
autopsy and the people giving orders and that - Finck said under oath,
an Army General said – I am. He tried to back away from that during his
later testimony at the Shaw trial but it was too late, he had already
said it under oath, and in fact we know he was being coached – I mean,
he was doing so badly on the witness stand that - in terms of telling
the truth that other people didn’t want him to tell that, they called
Dr. Boswell down and had him waiting in the wings to take over and to
get up there and rebut Finck if necessary, so Boswell revealed to us
under oath something we didn’t know, that he was called down there by
the Justice Department to help with the defense team, and was waiting in
the wings because Pierre Finck was doing so badly...
JM: So [... -ive ?..] testimony..
DH:
Yeah, so to make a long story short, yeah, Dr. Humes admitted in 1964
to Arlen Specter - To Assistant Council Arlen Specter on the Warren
Commission - admitted that he burned the first draft of the autopsy
report in his fireplace on Sunday, the weekend of the assassination.
JM: Um,hm
DH:
The problem for Humes is that during the House Committee period in the
mid 70’s he changed his story, and he said – Well I destroyed the notes
in my fireplace, I destroyed notes - because they had the blood of the
President on them and he thought it was unseemly. Well, that’s a
conflict right there, so when he testified before us General Council
Jeremy Gunn really bore in on him on this subject and Humes finally
admitted that he destroyed both, the first draft, and notes. So that’s
the first – and by the way, Dr. Boswell told us under oath that the
first draft was actually typed and it was prepared on Saturday. Boswell
told us [..?..] it was prepared Saturday and reviewed by he and Humes,
and we also know the third party, Dr. Canada, commanding officer of the
hospital portion of the Bethesda complex, those three men reviewed it on
Saturday, Humes destroys it in his fireplace the next morning, early
Sunday morning. So that’s the first version that’s been destroyed. The
second version was a signed version that was given to Robert Kennedy in
1965 by the Secret Service at his request. He was a Senator at that
time, from New York and then a year and a half later, when he was
required to turn over all the autopsy materials he had in his possession
back to the Government so they could be put in the archives – he
returned the photographs and x-rays but he did not return a signed
version of the autopsy report, along with the - what was left of the
brain and other biological specimens. So he kept part of these materials
and they’ve never seen the light of day again. So, ah….
JM: So
what you’re telling us is, is that standard operating autopsy procedures
were NOT followed in the case of the JFK Assassination.
DH:
Certainly not with the evidence. I mean the evidence was made by the
Government, it never should have been turned over to someone’s family.
And when they returned it to the Government, and the Government knew
immediately that he had not returned all the materials and that he had
kept biological materials, tissue samples, the brain, plus a signed
autopsy report. They didn’t go after him, they just let it go, which was
appalling. So we know that the next year in 1967, the year after the
Kennedy’s returned the materials to the archives - The next year the
Secret Service turned over an original autopsy report to the National
Archives, and that’s the one we have today, and that’s the third
version. In other words Jim, if you – if there’s only one autopsy
report, no one can give it to someone else twice. See, you have the
Secret Service on record giving a signed autopsy report to Robert
Kennedy in 1965 and then he keeps it and doesn’t give it back. And then
the Secret Service turns over ANOTHER signed autopsy report two years
later to the archives, and that’s the version that’s on file now and
therefore I conclude that’s the third written version. So that’s just
completely unacceptable.
JM: You think the third version which is
now the official Government version, do you think it accurately
reflects what was actually found at the Kennedy autopsy?
DH: Oh,
no. It is the version that concludes that a bullet transited the body
And that was not a conclusion, you know, from back to front, from the
upper back at the throat That was not a conclusion of, at the autopsy,
the FBI agents were there and they wrote their own report and they know
that was not a conclusion during the autopsy itself and I don’t believe
that was the conclusion in the version that Robert Kennedy sequestered
either. So that was one conclusion that evolved and of course there is
no mention of any shot from the front in the autopsy report that exists
today and I don’t believe there was in the earlier versions either
because that evidence was surppressed during the autopsy itself. I mean,
the cover-up began the moment the body arrived. So no, the conclusions
were evolving, and that’s why you have different versions, and all
that’s all laid out in Chapter Eleven of my book.
JM: Okay so
they altered the autopsy report. What about the President’s body, there
has been some speculation there may have been alteration actually to the
body. Do you have any knowledge of that?
DH: There was, Jim. I
consider it a certainty, now. This concept was first raised in 1981 by
David Lifton and his outstanding book “Best Evidence” which he worked on
for fifteen years. By the way it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, it
didn’t win but it was nominated, which is remarkable…
JM: Um, hm
DH:...and
given the subject matter - and Macmillan at the time was very brave to
publish that book. So Mr. Lifton believed that the body, the wounds on
the head, had been altered before the body had arrived at Bethesda and
my conclusion is that he was close but he wasn’t really correct, and
I’ve altered my view of this because we just know more now than we did
in 1981. We know a lot more, based on the ARRB’s depositions and
interviews. I’ve concluded that, yes, the head wounds were altered by
surgery, by post mortem surgery after death but it happened at Bethesda
before the autopsy began. You see, there was a long period of time, Jim,
between the body actually arrived and the time the autopsy started, the
body arrived at 6:35 p.m. we know that because of a report written by a
Marine Security Guard, Sargeant Boyajian and so it arrives at 6:35
p.m., the autopsy doesn’t begin until 8:15. 8:15 p.m.
And there
is a lot of time there for shenanigans to take place, and the
shenanigans WERE taking place. We interviewed Tom Robinson, one of the
morticians, who prepared the body for burial after the autopsy. He was
there for the whole period, he was there for the whole autopsy. We also
deposed the two x-ray technicians and one of them, Ed Reed - Ed Reed the
autopsy tech and Tom Robinson, the mortician they [.. bo....surgury...]
to the President’s skull, done by Dr. Humes. And from the way they
described the details of that surgery it’s clear that what Dr. Humes was
doing was expanding the exit wound that was seen by the Dallas doctors
and nurses, expanding that wound dramatically to five times its original
size so that now there’s a large defect on the top of the President’s
head and on the right side – which was not present in Dallas.
The
reason for him doing that, the primary reason, was to get to the brain
and remove evidence. Remove evidence of the shot from the front. Remove
the entry wound in the upper right forehead with an incision, remove the
entry wound in the bone. Remove part of the skull plate, and remove
bullet fragments from the brain, and along with it a lot of brain tissue
was removed. So this is – and the process of doing this, you’ve got a
much larger skull defect when you are finished with this illicit surgery
and that large skull defect is misrepresented by the camera, and in the
autopsy report, and this represented to history as – quote - damage
caused by an exiting bullet – unquote. So this [...] large defect done
by the doctors which Tom Robinson was adamant about. He looked at the
autopsy photos and said - Oh all this damage at the top of the head, he
said – this is not what the bullet did, this is what the doctors did. He
was there, he knew that.
JM: So what you are telling us is that
these alterations, these shenanigans as you called them, they certainly
could not have been done by Lee Harvey Oswald, or by the Russians, or
the by the Mafia, or by the anti-Castro Cubans, right?
DH:
Exactly, and to prove that point, Jim I will make if brief here but –
the body left Dallas in an ornate bronze viewing casket very heavy, over
four hundred pounds, made of bronze, with the top half that opens up
for viewing, and it arrived at Bethesda in a different casket and in
different wrappings. It arrived in a cheap aluminum shipping casket and
instead of wrapped in sheets, wrapped in a body bag with a zipper. So
the body was not only intercepted in route, where I believe the throat
wound was - there was an entry wound in the President Kennedy’s throat
seen in Dallas by all the doctors. And that was tampered with before the
body arrived at Bethesda. But after the body arrived, the skull wounds
were tampered with by the pathologists themselves. So that makes it very
clear that interruption in the chain of custody makes it very clear
that it was an inside job by the Government.
JM: Right, that’s
amazing. Okay, well, we’ll proceed along to Step Three of the analysis
of the Kennedy Assassination, when we return right after this.
[- to 25:15 - commercial break]
28:47:
JM:
Howdy, This is Jim Marrs. We’re back here again on Dreamland, and we’re
talking today with Doug Horne, Chief Military analyst of the
Assassination Records Review Board an we are learning some amazing
things, that the basic evidence in the Kennedy Assassination cannot be
trusted. Doug lets move on to the Zapruder film, what can you tell us
about the Zapruder film which has been called “the clock” of the
assassination.
DH: Right,you know for the first thirty years or
so, after it was taken by Mr. Zapruder, that one preeminent film of the
assassination, the only one of the films that really shows detail of any
kind. It was studied – the image content was studied for the first
thirty years and people wanted to know what can it tell us about what
happened. So for the first thirty years the debates about the film were
about the image content.
For the last fifteen years or so, the
debate has been, really, is the film authentic or not. The whole
territory of the debate, the structure of the debate has changed
dramatically and it’s my conclusion, after working for the review board,
after we commissioned a limited, I add, I emphasize, LIMITED
authenticity study of the film by Kodak. And after studying his report,
his report raises more questions than it answered – it’s a very biased
and flawed report. And I write about that extensively in my book in
Chapter Fourteen. And it’s my conclusion today for two reasons which
I’ll enumerate in a moment that the film is an altered film. Altered to
hide evidence of an exit wound on the back of the President’s head. It’s
been blacked out on the film, and altered to actually paint on a false
exit wound in the right front of his head, which mimics, not perfectly
either, which generally mimics the enormous damage in these fraudulent
autopsy photos which show really, the results of surgery. So the real
exit wound behind President Kennedy’s right ear, in the back of his head
has been blacked out on the film, a false exit wound has been painted
onto the right front and the top of his head, to mimic the autopsy
photos – and because those alterations are so apparent now for reasons I
will explain in a moment, they are so apparent.
All the other
things, Jim, that we thought we knew about the film for thirty years are
suspect now. So, the first generation researchers who studied the film
and who spent countless hours, hundreds of hours, studying this thing
frame by frame concluded there was a timing problem. And that President
Kennedy and Governor Connally were shot too close together to have been
done by the same rifle and that therefore, their reactions to two
different shots occuring very close together was evidence of multiple
shooters from behind. That was the original conclusions of the first
generation researchers. But I got to tell you, Jim, there are some fifty
witnesses or more - that the limousine came to a complete stop during
the motorcade, for an instant - for a second or two, and that’s not seen
in the film today. So if a car stop has been removed as well, and by
the way – something else is not present in the film that should be.
Everyone in Dealey Plaza who had their eyes focussed on the President
the moment he was killed, the one thing they all described that was
common was massive amount of exit debris leaving the back of his head
and traveling to the rear. Everybody that watched the murder described
that one thing. Their descriptions were different in other ways, but
that was the one thing the descriptions had in common. You do not see
any exit debris leaving the back of President Kennedy’s head and
traveling to the rear in the Zapruder film. So if the car stop has been
removed which it may have and if the, if the exit debris leaving the
back of his head has been removed, I should say that they’re not
present, so therefore I suspect they’ve been removed. I mean I know that
the head wounds have been altered in the film, so I don’t necessarily
trust the early conclusions of the research community if there’s a
timing problem in the film, if time has been removed from the film by
removing frames, to remove a car stop and to remove exit debris
traveling in the wrong direction then the old argument about the timing
problem it’s just suspect, and I submit to you that it’s no longer the
primary evidence in the film of conspiracy. The primary evidence in the
film, in the film of conspiracy is the alteration of the head wounds.
That’s the big story now and that’s the new story that’s in my book.
And...
JM: That’s true, and you know the thing that proves that
to me is the testimony of not only the police officer Bobby Hargis who
was riding to the immediate left rear of Kennedy but also witnesses who
saw him that day and he was spattered with blood and brain matter, and
he told, he told people that he was so hit with debris that he thought
that he had been shot.
DH: That’s right he thought he had been
shot, and both he and Martin both of them, to the left rear were covered
with blood and gore, and so was the rear of the car, the trunk lid. So
the listeners may be wondering why am I so certain that the film has
been altered. The primary reason is because a patriot named Sydney
Wilkinson, the lady in the film industry in Los Angeles, purchased from
the National Archives a 35mm duplicate negative certified to be
accurate, certified to be gold standard, the real deal, from the
National Archives last year. She then assembled an ad hoc research group
in Los Angeles - people from the motion picture industry. Nobody, Jim,
had ever done that before. It’s remarkable that it took forty six years
for someone to do this, but she did it, and…
JM: These people in
the film industry, they had no real knowledge and no real particular
concern about the Kennedy Assassination.
DH: They had no vested
interest, they were not researchers who had staked out a claim for or
against authenticity, they hadn’t written any books on the subject. Most
of them hadn’t thought much about it in decades, but these are people
that know motion picture films. They had no axe to grind. And Jim, seven
out of seven people now that have viewed the digital scans that she
made – she made high definition scans of each frame of the Zapruder film
from her dupe negatives, Seven out of seven experts, now, experts in
the post-production of pictures, people who know what special effects
look like – Seven out of seven people that have viewed it now say that
the film – the head wounds are not only altered, but they are badly
altered. The alterations were very poorly done – and...
JM: They were probably done very hurriedly.
DH:
Very hurriedly, in fact I know how hurriedly because the other part of
the story proves that the chain of custody found wasn’t what we thought
it was and instead of being sent directly to Life Magazine the day after
the assassination like we thought it was for years, instead the film
went to Washington DC to the CIA’s primary photo analysis facility, the
NPIC, National Photographic Interpretation Center. And briefing boards
were made Saturday night, the 23rd of November, ’63 from the original
eight millimeter film. That’s what you would expect. The problem is,
that the next night at the same facility – another Zapruder film was
brought,– this is Sunday night, now, the Sunday night before the funeral
– another Zapruder film was brought, 24 hours later to the NPIC and
those controlling that evolution, brought in a whole different group of
workers, not one single person who had been present the night before was
present Sunday night, a different group of workers and the film
presented was no longer an eight millimeter film it was sixteen
millimeter wide double eight film, but it was as yet unslit. So this was
an altered film, Jim, masquerading as a camera original. And the Agent
that delivered it to the NPIC the second night for a second set of
briefing boards to be made said it came from the CIA’s secret photo lab
at Kodak headquarters in Rochester NY called Hawkeye Works. So that’s a
heck of a story, that a second original film that was developed at a
place where we know the original really was not developed. The original
was developed in Dallas, Jim, and it was slit from eight millimeters on
the day it was developed, so a second Zapruder film was brought to the
CIA’s lab in Washington Sunday night, it’s double the width it should be
- it’s masquerading as right out of the camera just developed in the
wrong city, in Rochester. So what you have, I think, is an authentic set
of briefing boards that what the film really showed, made Saturday
night. And then you had a sanitized set of briefing boards made Sunday
night in the same building by a different group of people sanitized
group of briefing boards made from an altered film. And that’s a heck of
a story so we have a...
JM: How difficult would it have been to
take these, we say briefing boards, I’m assuming your talking about
like, they could photograph each frame and blow it up to like an eight
by ten, or whatever, they could then mess with it, how difficult would
it be then to photograph each of those doctored frames and shoot ‘em
frame by frame with the Zapruder – camera, and then be able to argue
that it came from his camera and therefore it was in an authentic film.
DH:
Yeah the alteration question is one that’s still being researched. The
Hollywood experts - there were two ways, Jim, to do a visual effect in a
motion picture in those days, of course we didn’t have any digital
technology yet, so the two ways to do it were by traveling mattes or by
aerial imaging. The people that believe the film was altered, the seven
Hollywood experts who have seen it so far, they believe aerial imaging
was probably the technique used, its much simpler than a traveling
matte, and it’s my personal opinion after reading school text books from
1965, talking to these people in Hollywood is that it WAS possible,
that’s my opinion. It was possible to alter the head wound images within
one day using aerial imaging. Now if...
JM: Can you explain aerial imaging? What are we talking?
DH:
Yeah, very simply I’d love to – if you take a film – Aerial imaging
Jim, let me start over, Aerial imaging is done by - with a device called
an optical printer. Optical printers are used to copy motion picture
films by projecting the original image though a lens and then recording
it in another camera. So optical printers are almost always customized
and if the – many of them were customized by to handle aerial imaging.
So in aerial imaging you had this big Rube Goldberg contraption about
six feet tall, very heavy, bolted to the deck and you’re gonna project
the original film from below, it bounces off a mirror at a forty five
degree angle and comes straight up through the air through a condenser
lens. On top of the condenser lens is a glass plate on which you can do
animation, so if you are projecting an original film from below frame by
frame it’s coming through condenser lens through a glass plate about
seven and a half by ten inches. You have acetate frames laid on top of
the glass plate. You do your artwork – you block out part of the head,
and you paint on a false wound on each acetate frame and you
re-photograph this composite image from above in a process camera. So
you have a playback camera down below, the process camera up above. But
the aerial imaging only requires one pass through the new camera so you
retain a good visibility, good resolution, it doesn’t take as long that
way and you don’t have registration problems because it’s self matting.
Now that’s a little bit of inside baseball, but it’s all explained in
Chapter Fourteen. So aerial imaging was, I believe was feasible to have
been done within a twelve hour period providing you used a Bell and
Howell eight millimeter home movie camera as the process camera and I
believe that’s what happened...
JM: Yeah since they had the Zapruder camera then you could use that as the processing camera, right?
DH:
Well it - Jim, I don’t recall sitting here right now, when the
Government took the camera whether it was that weekend or a week or two
later but, yes, as long as you had a Bell and Howell camera, well as
long as you had one you were set.
JM: Okay.
DH: So if
other things were altered in the film, if time was removed, by removing
frames, if the car stop were removed if exit debris was removed coming
out the back of the head, which I think it surely was, some of those
things may have taken additional time but we do know that the first
alterations were done by Sunday night because it’s the Sunday night
version of the film from with the NPIC employees made their briefing
boards, the second set of briefing boards. We know from examining a
surviving briefing board from Sunday night that the blowups they made of
the Zapruder frames are the same as the crude pictures in Life the next
week – the black and white pictures published by Life the next week, so
the initial set of alterations was done by Sunday night rather
hurriedly, I do believe, and the pictures in Life that week and the
pictures in the second set of briefing boards are identical, so it’s
clear that all – many alterations probably the principle ones were done
on Sunday, November 24th and I think that’s why they’re crude and their
not well done and I think that’s why Life Magazine surpressed the film
or the motion picture for twelve years...
JM: I wanted to point
out that as far as the public is concerned no one actually got to see
the Zapruder film run as a film for a dozen years.
DH: That’s
right, it was only shown to the Warren Commission on a shakey movie
screen, you know the old fashion movie screen with an eight millimeter
projector – the original was looked at three or four times and the rest
of the time the Warren Commission had to use a copy and Life Magazine
after spending an extra hundred thousand dollars basically tripling the
price to buy the second time. They bought it Saturday for fifty thousand
for print rights only. They bought it two days later on Monday for a
hundred fifty thousand, they paid an extra hundred thousand bucks in
1963 dollars for motion picture rights and they never once in twelve
years displayed it as a motion picture for profit. Once the bootleg copy
of the film was shown by Robert Groden and Geraldo Rivera and Dick
Gregory on television in 1975, Life said forget it, and they sold it
back to the family for one dollar. So, because the heat was on them at
that point, is why did you surppress this, this back and to the left
motion on the President’s body. So they said – Oh we don’t want anything
more to do with this. But I believe that’s one of the main reasons it
was suppressed for twelve years is because the alterations were so
poorly done that if it had been loaned or used to show it as a motion
picture that those using it and showing it may have detected the fraud.
JM:
Exactly, let me add this quick, here’s a little coda, just a few days
ago I received an email from a fellow who’s the nephew of a man who was
an investigative reporter for Life Magazine and he was telling me how
his uncle suspected conspiracy in the Kennedy Assassination and was
trying to pursue that angle when he was called off, told to forget it by
his immediate superior at Life Magazine who it turns out – and he was
told - was a close friend of Clay Shaw. The man who was prosecuted by
Jim Garrison. So we see the inner connections that were taking place at
that time, which of course the public has never been privy too.
DH:
Wow, you know, Jim, that’s amazing – I’m speechless...There’s one other
thing I should point out about the film – I think the head explosion,
the infamous head explosion in frame 313 is artwork. I don’t think it’s
real. It only lasts for one frame that film was running at eight – over
eighteen frames per second on the average. It was running two frames per
second fast. A real head explosion would have registered on at least
four or five frames of movie film. Maybe seven or eight frames – half a
second. That explosion only lasts for one frame – it’s impossibly short
and it actually – if you look at the scans made by the Hollywood group –
it actually occurs – the explosion is centered forward of the
President’s skull, actually outside of his head. So the artist that did
that head explosion did a lousy job and they painted it in the wrong
place on the frame. And it just doesn’t fly – that dog does not hunt,
Jim.
JM: Just does not hunt. That’s amazing. Okay, we’re gonna
take a short break and when we come back, Doug I’m gonna ask you – What
do we do about all this now? We’ll be right back.
[ to 46:11 – commercial break]
46:49:
JM:
Howdy, this is your host for today, Jim Marrs, we’ve been talking to
Doug Horne, Chief Military Analyst for the Assassination Records Review
Board who has just blown us away with his knowledge and his conclusions
that the Kennedy Assassination was an inside job and that the most basic
evidence the body, the Zapruder film has all been altered by elements
within the Federal Government of the United States. Doug, where to we go
from here?
DH: Well, there’s two possible avenues, I mean, the
one is to do what we’ve always been doing, for people that are
fascinated and sometimes even obsessed with this evidence to keep
studying it and keep writing about it and that’s what I’m doing and the
other...
JM: Tell us where we can get your book.
DH: Oh
sure, you know I had to go the self publishing route because I wanted to
publish a two thousand page book so my book is five volumes. But I
don’t want people to be afraid of that, it’s very accessible, it’s
written for the ordinary person, so you can get it only at Amazon.com
and they’ll print it upon demand within one day or day and a half at the
most of when you order it at Amazon.com. They’ll print it and it’ll be
in the mail to you. And each volume is very reasonably priced. So you
can buy one at a time, two at a time or all five. Just put in my last
name Horne and word JFK – Horne JFK – HORNE JFK and all five volumes
will pop up.
JM: That’s great. I’ve noticed already that there
are the debunkers, the naysayers, yes even perhaps, the hired minions
who are on the internet saying - Oh, well Doug Horne he’s just
fantasizing and he’s just drawing bad conclusions and, yada yada – how
would you respond to them?
DH: Well, no, I’m not a medical
doctor, Jim. but I’ve been studying the case since 1966 when the first
critical books came out and I had a man who’s an MD review the work, he
did peer review of my book while I was writing it, learned a lot from
him, I learned a lot from the five medical consultants hired by the
review board staff during our – while we were in session during the
1990’s - and I had a board certified radiologist peer review my chapter
on the x-rays, so I’m pretty confident that I am not blowing smoke. And I
would invite anyone who isn’t sure or even someone who is skeptical.
Read all the books. Read the Warren report, read the House Committee
report and read my book and make up your own mind. Don’t fall into the
trap of allowing someone else to characterize my work. Their goal is to
get you not to read it. So make up your own mind. I believe that
extraordinary crimes require extraordinary evidence. And I have provided
the evidence. That’s why the evidence is five volumes, and eighteen
hundred and eighty pages of text and ninety pages of illustrations. So
people can decide for themselves whether I am qualified or not.
JM:
Well, that’s certainly reasonable enough. At this point I – go ahead
and give us your bottom line, so what are we talking about here, are we
talking about coup d'état?
DH: Yeah, we are Jim, it’s not a
pretty story, it’s an ugly story. I don’t think the Government will ever
admit to this, because it’s just too unpleasant. And, unfortunately the
people in succeeding administrations, they always seem to think the
American people can’t handle the truth. In my view, what the American
people cannot stomach the most is lies. I’ve pursued this case for
decades because I hate being lied to. I just hate it with an intensity
that I cannot describe. So I think people can handle the truth
particularly forty six, forty seven years later and if we’re gonna
understand our real history, you know, we need to come to grips with
what really happened to JFK, and Martin Luther King, and Bobby Kennedy,
and the nation hasn’t done that yet, you know, as a whole. So, yeah I
believe we had a coup d'état. And I believe it was over the....go ahead,
Jim...
JM: We’ve kind of been all in the state of denial, haven’t we?
DH:
We ARE a nation in denial. We’re a nation that’s a little bit naive, we
should be ashamed of ourselves, so if we’re more interested in our
mythology, about ourselves in believing in our mythology, about us being
the greatest democracy on earth and, you know, bad things don’t happen
in our country, they only happen in other countries. That mindset is one
I cannot tolerate, after having studied all this evidence. This
evidence, the evidence, everything is wrong with this case, it’s what
drove me to conclude there was a coup. I didn’t start in 1967 with the
conclusion there was a coup, and I’m gonna go cherry pick the evidence
that said there was. It was the other way around, the evidence drove me
toward my political conclusion which I reached about ten years ago. And
this coup d'état in America, Jim, occurred at the height of the cold war
and it was engineered by a consensus, I hate to say this, a wide
consensus of people in the national security establishment within the
Pentagon and the intelligence agencies, that President Kennedy was weak
on foreign policy, they thought he was dangerous, and that they were
very upset that he wanted to end the cold war and not win it. To these
people, winning the cold war not only meant winning the space race or
the peace race, it meant winning hot wars, like Viet Nam, Laos, Cuba. It
also meant possibly even nuking the Soviet Union, a first strike,
preemptive first strike against the Soviet Union. This was the mindset
that was confronting JFK, who these people viewed President Kennedy by
the third year of his administration as a very dangerous change agent...
JM:...and
if he had ended the cold war, not only just think about the the
billions and billions of dollars in defense that they would not have
made...
DH: Okay, you’re not a kidding, so the – I view the the
intelligence cold warriors and the high level people in the Pentagon who
all opposed him, so vociferously to his face, quite often, who opposed
him as Jihadists. They were our holy warriors of that time who wanted to
defeat Communism on the battlefield. I mean, a cold war wasn’t good
enough for these people. They wanted victories on the battlefield
because of the frustrating stalemate in Korea in 1953. And when they
realized he wasn’t going to give it to them in Laos, he wasn’t going to
give it to them in Viet Nam, and he wasn’t even going to invade Cuba.
These people were absolutely fit to be tied and when he began, you know,
to formally try to end the cold war in 1963 with the Peace Speech, in
June ’63 and the successful sponsorship of the Test Ban Treaty and
getting that through the Senate at the end of that summer. That was it, I
mean, and the final straw was probably the fact that he was negotiating
back channel with Castro to try to reestablish diplomatic relations
with Cuba, providing the Russians would leave, so they did not want to
see this man reelected.
JM: Right. Okay, look Doug, let me ask
you this – do you feel like those same forces, maybe not the exact same
people, but their families, the power groups, the financiers, the
bankers, behind them, their minions, are they still in power today?
DH:
The same mindset is certainly in power, the mindset that, the
simplistic mindset that says the best solutions are military solutions. I
don’t believe that myself, but there are people around as we know, from
studying the last decade, that the Neocons certainly believed that. And
they’re still around, they’re waiting to take power again, as soon as
Obama leaves office, so, yeah, that mindset is still with us, that
military solutions are the best ones, and that we want to – we not only,
this – people with this mindset don’t really care whether people like
us or not. They want people to fear this nation. And of course, they
have plenty of support from all the corporate interests who want to
continue to make money hand over fist from money pissed away on arms
programs.
JM:Right. And the occupation of other key countries
that may be sitting on oil deposits or gas pipelines or even the poppy
fields. Right?
DH: Yeah, that’s right.
JM: Amazing. All
right, Doug Horne. Thank you so much, this has been extremely
enlightening discussion and I personally appreciate what you’re saying.
As far as I know you are one of the first government officials who is
seen the inside information and who’s come out with the courage to say,
Hey, this is an inside job, this was a coup d'état which of course fits
all the known facts. I certainly appreciate that, particularly myself
because, of course, you know, going back to, oh I think I published an
article in 1975 that said that said this is a coup d'état and of course I
was the conspiracy theorist. But it turns out that the conspiracy
theorists were more right than wrong.
DH: They certainly have
been, and I – in the 60’s Mark Lane, and Josiah Thompson blazed the
trail and and they were followed by, you know, along with Jim Garrison,
and they were followed by you, and David Lifton, and many others, and
I’m standing on the shoulders of you people. So, we have to keep
fighting the good fight, Jim.
JM: Well, truth will out, and I’m
like you, I haven’t been in it because I had any preconceived ideas.
I’ve been at the Kennedy Assassination because from the gitgo because I
realized something was not right about all that and all I wanted was the
truth and I submit and I reinforce and I reiterate what you said which
is – Don’t believe us, just study the facts, and study the material,
come to your own conclusions.
DH: Right.
JM: Doug, thank
you so much, I appreciate you being with us today and this is your
Dreamland sporadic host, Jim Marrs saying – Adios.
[ To 57:11 ] [ announcer tag to end – 57:36 ]
Transcribed and made available by Jerry Ellis.
Thanks JE
