Friday, December 12, 2014

Torture Debate

From Debunking the Debunkers blog contributor Stewart Bradley:

For those who are interested:

How I spent my morning debating friends and lost my faith in humanity.

So a respected friend of mine posts the photo meme below. I felt I had to say something:

Person #1 - fuckin rules

Person #2 - Just like criminals getting shot. Eh asshole pick a different job and this kinda stuff won't happen to you.

Me - I know I'm probably opening up a can of worms with this BUT...

1. Of the 119 detainees known to be tortured almost 1/4 of them had no connection to Al-Qaeda, unlike Bush Administration officials who were meeting with the head of Pakistan's ISI (a known funder of the attack) and the Bush family themselves who had intimate business ties to the Bin Laden family and redacted 28 pages of the report to hide the Saudi's involvement.

2. None of the information gathered through torture lead to the capture of Osama Bin Laden, although to this day the FBI admits there is no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to the attack.

3. Torture does not work mainly because when someone is being tortured they will literally say ANYTHING they think the torturer wants to hear to stop the torture. The truth becomes irrelevant.
Please understand, I am just as outraged by what happened on 9/11, but using the tactics of terrorism by torturing people makes us no better than the cowards who orchestrated the attack. We should have had a legitimate investigation in WHO committed the attack before dropping bombs on a people who had nothing to do with it.

I'm sure some people will now tell me how unreasonable and unpatriotic I am, but the meme posted above only serves to manipulate your anger into defending the actions of criminals. I hope you understand. Peace and best wishes to all.

Person #2 - I agree that we shouldn't torture them. It's a waste of our time and money. We should shoot them on the spot and let The Lord sort em out.

Person #3 - Amen! Kill em all let Allah sort em out!

Me - With all due respect, the people who committed the 9/11 atrocity wanted everyone to be so angry that we do not think clearly, so I certainly understand why it is so easy to hate - because we are being programmed to hate. It's not an accident - they want us ready to murder to satisfy our sense of righteous justice.

But now we have a real paradox. To say Amen, which is a Christian affirmation, then to suggest we "kill em all" without regard to who is innocent or guilty. Now I don't pretend to be Christian, but isn't there something in that bible about not killing? Please don't allow yourself to be manipulated by propaganda. You are smarter than that.

Person #2 - Just the job title alone make them eligible for the chopping block.
noun: terrorist; plural noun: terrorists
a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.

Me - Yes, exactly! People who use the tactics of terrorism - using violence and fear for political aims - are terrorists who should be held accountable for their actions. That is exactly why Bush administration officials who tortured unarmed prisoners, the use of violence for political aims, should be held accountable. Or else we are no different than them. I'm glad you agree.

Person #3 - Very well put Stew but we are dealing with less then animals here. To call them animals is actually an insult to animals.

You can't do the "Christian" thing with these disgusting people. You need to fight the fight that's brought to your doorstep , fire with fire.

There are no innocents as far as I'm concerned.

Where is the outrage in the Moslem community? Where are the "innocent" Moslems in this country speaking out against these atrocities being committed in the name of Islam?

Islam is a religion based on rape, murder & intolerance . It encourages beastiality .

I say exterminate the enemy before the enemy fulfils it's ultimate goal of exterminating you.

Me - We certainly have a right to defend ourselves against those who wish to harm us - but 9/11 has been intentionally used to create hatred for the entire Muslim community, not just the "terrorists" who committed the crime:

"Some media pundits and other well-known figures-including notable evangelist Franklin Graham-have recently accused Muslims of remaining silent after the terrorist attacks. Such charges, which have been covered widely but superficially in the mainstream media, deserve serious analysis.
In reality, even a cursory review of press releases, newspaper articles, opinion pieces, and internet websites reveals that Muslims were uniformly shocked, saddened, and outraged at the vicious attack on our own soil-and they did not hesitate to voice their unequivocal condemnation. In fact, American Muslim and Arab-American organizations and leaders were among the first to react in an organized fashion to condemn the terrorist attacks on that very same day, long before it became clear that individuals calling themselves Muslims were involved in the attacks."

Knowledge is power, and the use of fear and hatred to justify killing people is what terrorism is all about. It can turn us into the very "animals" we are supposed to fight against. I beg you, please think about what exactly separates us from our enemies. Best wishes to you.

Person #4 - We dont cut fecking heads off, just a wee bit of water torture, I say turn the screws harder if they plan to kill us over here, or tell that to some poor maimed child here after it kicks off as we are now looked upon as too soft!

Me - Correct, No we don't cut heads off. Instead we drop bombs on people. For every terrorist we kill we also kill 28 civilians. Innocent men, women, children who are blown into bits. Do you wonder why they hate us? Are our tactics really stopping terrorists or are we outraging more of them to become terrorists to fight against us?

Keep in mind, our media does not show us the aftermath of our drone bombs - the crying families who want to know why their loved ones are dead. But every time those ISIS assholes stage a beheading the media replays the footage over and over. They do this to scare us and piss us off. To bypass our logical mind and give us an emotional knee jerk to want revenge. To make us think things like "nobody is innocent and kill them all!" Terrorism doesn't work without the media spreading it's message of violence. It's propaganda used to justify killing innocent people.

We need to apply some critical thinking or we become tools of the terrorists ourselves. Peace.

Person #2 - No our tactics are not working. We have a pussy for a president and a weak society. What happened the first time someone killed 2400 of our own on our soil. We took care of it as we should today.

Me - Fine- I quit. Facepalm. Have it your way- America is doomed. Are you happy now?

Person #2 - We still love you stew.

Me - Thanks - I love you guys too. Rock on y'aw!


Confirmed: We tortured - Sign Petition Demanding Accountability

Senate Torture Report exposes falsity of 9/11 Commission Report

No one is reading the CIA torture report, so we turned it into 11 fun memes

Senate's Torture Report

12 Things to Keep in Mind When You Read the Torture Report

CIA Agents Reportedly Impersonated Senate Staffers While Torture Report Was Being Produced