Showing posts with label 9/11 debunker Mark Roberts. Show all posts
Showing posts with label 9/11 debunker Mark Roberts. Show all posts

Tuesday, March 8, 2011

The World Trade Center WAS a Controlled Demolition

Back in February of 2009, debunker Mark “Gravy” Roberts announced that the “9/11 ‘truth’ movement has dried up and blown away,” and that he wouldn’t be adding anything new to his site “unless big news arises.” Some of the “big news” Roberts last added was an honest mistake made by a contributor to this blog. Roberts had not added anything since March of 09, which is odd considering that two years worth of big news has occurred in the 9/11 truth community.

Well, after almost two years, Roberts has finally added something new to his site. He has uploaded an old video he made back in 2007 called “WTC Not a Demolition,” which is currently available at 911myths.com. He claims that his video “shows how absurd those claims (about controlled demolition) are from an audiovisual standpoint.” After reviewing his video myself, I have found that this claim is not even remotely true. Many of the arguments Roberts makes in his video are addressed in my extensive critique of the 9/11 Mysteries Viewer’s Guide. His video presents itself as offering sound refutations to controlled demolition theories. Here I will show that his video amounts to nothing more than petty insults and half-baked arguments. To address each section, I will use the video’s online index.

• 01:10 South tower inward bowing of exterior wall, no smoke-disturbing detonations precede collapse

The first section of Roberts’ video deals with the inward bowing of the South Tower’s perimeter columns. He claims that the ejections of debris we see coming from the building only appear after the collapse began. Based on this, he asserts that this proves that the ejections are being caused by the collapse and not vice versa. First of all, we have videos of ejections coming from the WTC before the collapse begins here and here. Second off, this argument about the inward bowing highlights a fundamental error Roberts constantly makes throughout his video: he assumes that the Towers would have been set up and executed like a traditional demolition. This shows his obvious ignorance of the possibilities of a covert demolition scenario that may have been set up for the buildings. Jim Hoffman has outlined a scenario where the inward bowing of the Towers’ columns would not only have been part of the demolition scenario, but also would have been an essential element:

Excerpt from “A Hypothetical Blasting Scenario: A Plausible Theory Explaining the Controlled Demolition of the Twin Towers Using Aluminothermic Incendiaries and Explosives with Wireless Ignition Means
Stage 1: Thermate Melts and Corrodes Core Steelwork

During Stage 1, extending from up to 10 minutes before T-0, thermate coatings on key parts of the core structure steelwork are ignited via the wireless ignition control system. The two areas attacked are: the core columns on a few floors below the crash zone, just above where most of the columns transition from box columns to wide-flange beams; and the inner portions of the hat truss that connect it to the core.

The thermal/corrosive attack on these two portions of the structure leaves the entire block of the core structure above the upper mechanical equipment floor "floating", with no major steel members to transfer its gravity loads to the lower portion of the core or to the perimeter walls: it is now supported by the web-trussed floor diaphragms. The upper core block now exerts massive inward forces on the perimeter walls due to the high degree of leverage involved in the translation of the core block's gravity loads into pulling on the perimeter walls. It is these forces that produce the inward bowing of portions of perimeter walls that NIST claims are due merely to the sagging of floor diaphragms still supported by the core.
As Hoffman also writes in his essay, “A key objective is to get the top of the Tower to move before explosive action is clearly evident to onlookers outside the building.” Thus, engineered in the correct way, the inward bowing of the Towers’ perimeter columns could very well have been an essential element in initiating the collapses.

• 01:53 South tower fake collapse audio promoted by truthers as real

The next section of Roberts’ video deals with the audio of the South Tower’s collapse. He shows a video of the collapse with fake audio and claims truthers have used this video as evidence. While the audio in that video is clearly fake, new videos of the WTC collapses have been released through FOIA requests, and show that explosive sounds are clearly audible.

• 02:32 What actual explosive demolitions look and sound like

Roberts then proceeds to show a long series of demolitions to emphasize how loud traditional demolitions are. Again, Roberts makes the error of assuming that the Towers were set up as traditional demolitions. The “sounds of explosions” issue has been raised by numerous debunkers. Before addressing the sound of the Towers’ collapses, let’s first look at how relevant the sound issue actually is.

According to the NFPA 921 Guide, the actual “sound” of an explosive does not define an explosive event.
Although an explosion is almost always accompanied by the production of a loud noise, the noise itself is not an essential element in the definition of an explosion. The generation and violent escape of gases are the primary criteria of an explosion. –NFPA 921 Guide, Chapter 18 - Explosions, 18.1
Therefore, by the standards of the National Fire Protection Association, the “sound” of an explosion does not define an explosion. This of course makes sense, as sound evidence would technically fall under the category of witness evidence, as sounds have to be attested to by witnesses in an investigation. What should be tested for is the forensic evidence for explosives. NIST has admitted numerous times that they never tested for residues of explosives or incendiaries, and they dismissed the idea of explosives being used based on the “sound” argument.
“Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues?”

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

“Did investigators consider the possibility that an explosion caused or contributed to the collapse of WTC 7?”

Yes, this possibility was investigated carefully. NIST concluded that blast events inside the building did not occur and found no evidence supporting the existence of a blast event. In addition, no blast sounds were heard on the audio tracks of video recordings during the collapse of WTC 7 or reported by witnesses.
If other investigations were carried out by NIST and Roberts’ standards, then the police would have to rule out being shot as a cause of death if nobody hears a gunshot, even if the person has a very obvious bullet wound.

Even with videos that have the clearest audio from 9/11, it is probably still hard to appreciate just how loud the Towers’ collapses really were without actually being there. Although we cannot be sure of exactly how many types of explosives were used, we have evidence of one explosive: nanothermite. The authors of the Active Thermitic Material paper mention that in April 2001 the American Chemical Society held a symposium on the defense applications of nanomaterials in which they stated:
At this point in time, all of the military services and some DOE and academic laboratories have active R&D programs aimed at exploiting the unique properties of nanomaterials that have potential to be used in energetic formulations for advanced explosives…. nanoenergetics hold promise as useful ingredients for the thermobaric (TBX) and TBX-like weapons, particularly due to their high degree of tailorability with regards to energy release and impulse management.
The authors then go on to point out that:
The feature of ‘impulse management’ may be significant. It is possible that formulations may be chosen to have just sufficient percussive effect to achieve the desired fragmentation while minimizing the noise level.
In other words these materials, in any form that they are used, are perfect for covert demolition in which one would want to reduce the loud pops of conventional demolitions.

Of course, other types of explosives could have been used, and explosive sounds would probably not have been 100% preventable. However, Jim Hoffman has suggested a way that the demolitions would not have produced distinct explosive sounds.

Regardless of what Roberts believes, the collapse of the Towers produced enormous explosive sounds that could be heard miles away.

• 06:17 North tower audio deception in Loose Change

Roberts then proceeds to take issue with a video of the North Tower’s collapse in the film Loose Change. While I agree that the shaking was not caused by some pre-collapse explosion, explosive sounds can be heard in videos of the North Tower’s collapse.

• 07:24 "I heard a bomb" – witnesses using figures of speech to describe loud sounds. Includes interview with Hursley Lever, witness to the north tower elevator shaft fireball.

Roberts’ video next goes on to examine the issue of the witness testimony of explosions on 9/11. He claims that out of all the testimonies he’s examined, only 11% described the Towers’ collapses as explosions. However, Graeme MacQueen has estimated a higher percentage:
I do not know whether the FDNY witnesses constitute a representative sample of 9/11 witnesses, but it is possible that they do. Certainly, there is no lack of testimony to explosions from those outside the FDNY, and I see no obvious reason why firefighters and medics would be more prone than others to feel that they were witnessing explosions. If they constitute a representative sample, then a minimum of 23% of all witnesses to the Towers’ collapses appear to have perceived, or thought they perceived, explosions that brought down the Towers.
The common objection to MacQueen’s analysis is that he has taken numerous testimonies out of context. However, MacQueen has addressed these objections. Roberts also shows the testimony of Hursely Lever to demonstrate that truthers use some testimonies of witnesses who are using a figure of speech. Still, this is only one person’s testimony, and numerous other witnesses are quite clear about what they heard. He also shows a crane collapse as evidence that non-explosive events can produce explosive sounds. Again, none of the objections Roberts has raised warrants refusing to test for explosive residues. As stated by firefightersfor911truth.org:
Explosion sounds can be explained away. But, only after a thorough investigation. When there is this much witness testimony, evidence, and explosive use by terrorists on this very same complex, there is no excuse for refusing to test for explosive residue.
• 09:35 Use and effects of steel cutter charges.

The next section of the video deals with how conventional demolitions are set up. Again, the Towers were obviously far from conventional demolitions. The demolitions of the Towers could have been set up in any way needed. That’s why it’s called a CONTROLLED demolition.

• 11:55 A few pounds of cutter charges = huge boom and flash.

Roberts then expands on this point by showing how explosive demolitions create loud explosions and bright flashes. We have already covered how the sound levels could have been decreased, and that witnesses did report enormous explosions that could be heard for miles. And the fact of the matter is that flashes have been found in videos of the South Tower’s collapse. But this is an irrelevant point, as bright flashes do not always occur in controlled demolitions.

Roberts also raises the point about how many pounds of explosives would have been needed to demolish the Towers. However, as civil engineer Jonathan Cole has demonstrated, a minimum amount of thermite/thermate could have been used, even when it has not been formulated to be explosive.

• 13:16 Structural Engineer, collapse expert, and Weidlinger Associates WTC investigator Matthys Levy on conspiracy theories

Roberts then decides to reference Matthys Levy and the Weidlinger Associates investigation. This may not be the wisest decision, as the Weidlinger report strongly contradicts the NIST report on the collapse of the WTC.

Roberts also claims that truthers have misrepresented the size of the fires in the Towers. Roberts claims “Conspiracists like to claim that the fires were almost out just before collapse.” For someone who accuses people of misrepresenting others’ claims, Roberts does a fine job of doing that himself. What most in the Truth Movement claim is that the fires in the SOUTH Tower were almost out before collapse. And videos and photographs confirm this. Roberts believes the explosives wouldn’t have been able to survive the plane impacts and the fires. This is also false.

• 14:37 North tower "squibs" compared to explosive blasts

The next section of Roberts’ video deals with the squibs from the Towers. He asserts the dubious claim constantly repeated by debunkers and NIST that these squibs were simply air pressure ejected from the Towers. He points to one squib and claims that it is not blasting out, but flowing out of the building. However, squibs can eject from buildings at varying speeds, depending on how the gases are ejected from the explosives. Also, this one squib should not be representative of all the squibs from the Towers, as physicist David Chandler has shown that several of these ejections did shoot out of the building the exact way explosives behave, starting out strong and then loosing speed.

Also, careful calculations done by Dr. Crockett Grabbe show that the horizontal ejection rate of these squibs is disproportional to the vertical fall rate.
The video frame in Figure 4 of the World Trade Center North Tower taken by KTLA channel 5 news shows a "squib" -- a line of ejecting material from the tower -- right before it collapsed. Such squib ejections are driven by massive overpressure inside the building relative to the atmospheric pressure outside, and that overpressure is created by explosions. A number of squibs were observed coming from all 3 of Buildings 1, 2, and 7 a short second or 2 after each one started to collapse, and there are several websites that show photograph of them on all 3 buildings. The one displayed as Figure 4 shows ejecting material (bits of material large enough to have little air resistance) streaming out of the North Tower, which has traveled a distance from the tower in the horizontal direction, whereas the distance it has descended in the vertical direction because of gravitation pull is small.

Note the quantitative information that can be gathered from the ejection photograph in Figure 4. We can estimate that, at the front end, the ejecting plume has apparently fallen no more than roughly 3 feet (an estimate that might have up to a factor of 2 in error), whereas the horizontal distance of the front from building is about 1/3 the width of the North Tower, or about 70 feet. If we neglect air friction resistance over the length of the streamer, from fall distance s=0.5gt2, where g=32 feet/sec2 is the gravitational acceleration, we estimate 0.43 sec as the time since the front end first ejected from the building. That means that material in that squib is traveling horizontally at roughly 163 feet/sec, which means the squibs are effectively "bullets" of bits of material produced by the explosions.
Roberts also references calculations done by Dr. Zdenek Bazant et al to explain away the squibs. Kevin Ryan, in his comprehensive analysis of the squibs, has this to say about Dr. Bazant’s calculations.
Bazant, Le, Greening and Benson estimated the velocity of escaping air to be as high as 340 m/s, or 1100 fps. Of course they were trying to establish an argument for the bursts having reached the speed of sound, in order to explain away the witness testimony to explosions.
Several refutations of Bazant’s work have been published by members of the Truth Movement.

• 16:52 Explosive demolitions eject debris, sometimes dangerously.

At this point Roberts asserts that explosives would have caused shrapnel to be ejected everywhere out of the Towers at high speeds. He claims that explosives powerful enough to destroy the Towers would have done this. However, as even his video shows, there are ways of preventing that from happening. One of the ways this could have been prevented is by limiting the areas attacked by explosives in the Towers. Mechanical engineer Tony Szamboti has suggested that the two main sections of the Towers that were attacked were the outer core columns and the corner perimeter columns.

This could very well have limited the amount of small debris ejected far and fast. Regardless, Dr. Grabbe has shown evidence that much of the debris from the Towers was ejected great distances.
A table below summarizes some typical values of α for various material parameters.

Table: Values of α for selected material parameters


Solving (1) for v(t) by separation of variables yields the downward velocity vd and downward distance y:

(4) vd(t)= (g/α )1/2 tanh [(g α )1/2t]

(5) y(t) = (1/α) ln cosh [(g α )1/2t]

So where does this squib material hit the ground? If we take y to be the height of the ejection, we can solve the last equation for t, the time the material remains in the air. Multiply that t by the horizontal velocity vh of the squib material, and we have the horizontal distance x it travels. The equation of motion for the horizontal movement of the material is:

(6) a = dv/dt = - α v2

which solves by separation of variables, yielding:

(7) vh(t)= vo/(1 + α vot)

(8) x(t) = (1/α)

ln (1 + α vot) where vo is the velocity of initial ejection from the tower. Taking t to be the time the material remains in the air from (5) (solving for t after setting y=h) gives x(t) = xhit, the distance the material travels away from the tower. Graphs of that distance xhit versus the α for the material are shown in Figures 5 and 6 for ejections from about 1304 feet (400 meters) and 489 feet (150 m).
Thus, Dr. Grabbe shows that much of the material from the ejections would have been shot out up to 1/4 mile or more from the Towers.

• 18:05 Les Robertson, Twin Towers head engineer, on conspiracy claims

Roberts proceeds to quote WTC engineer Leslie Robertson and his objections to the idea that the Twin Towers were demolished. Gregg Roberts has addressed Robertson’s statements.
ROBERTSON: …I've not participated in the NIST Report directly, although of course I've read it, as have thousands of other structural engineers and other interested persons.

GR: Robertson offers no evidence to support this claim about how many people have read the NIST report. NIST published about 10,000 pages about the tower collapses. The Summary Report itself took up 248 pages plus 43 pages of front matter. Jim Hoffman’s critique of the Report notes that the Summary Report flatly contradicted some of the most important evidence presented deep in the 10,000 pages. Whistleblower Kevin Ryan calls all this the TiNRAT approach: “They’ll Never Read All This.”

Note the compound category, in which the relative numbers for the two categories of people who have read the Report are not provided. Maybe it’s three structural engineers and thousands of 9/11 skeptics! But as usual throughout the interview, we’re supposed to believe this because of who Robertson is and because he speaks confidently, rather than because of evidence and logic.
He is clearly implying that if only a few engineers have publicly challenged the official story, they are unlikely to be right. The idea of taking a majority vote of experts appeals to Americans’ sense of democratic values, but it has absolutely nothing to do with who is more likely to be right.

ROBERTSON: But the collapse mechanism of the Trade Center is as we had anticipated it would be when we first designed it. It was not – please don't misunderstand me – it was not designed to collapse. But any prudent engineer looking at the future has to think about, what are the mechanisms that cause collapse, and how to go about strengthening the building so as to minimize that circumstance. So sure, we spent time looking at that kind of event, and that which was observable from the photographs and so forth is reasonably consistent with that which we thought would be the case.

HOST: Why did it fall so straight down?

ROBERTSON: Well, that's kind of the nature of that kind of failure.

GR: This statement is reminiscent of the pre-scientific Aristotle: "It's in the nature of things to fall.” Throughout this response (continued below) Robertson says “uh” and makes other stuttering sounds and false starts more than in any other statement during the show. He misspeaks, saying that burning a sofa creates smoke capacity.
• 19:35 WTC 7: deceptive claims made by conspiracists, collapse expected by media

After almost 20 minutes, Roberts finally addresses the issue of World Trade Center 7. He starts out by showing a clip from Loose Change that compares the collapse of WTC7 with a controlled demolition. Roberts criticizes this part of the film because the audio of the demolition was omitted. Again, we have already addressed the sound issue. And as it turns out, David Chandler has found evidence of explosive sounds preceding WTC7’s collapse in the very video Roberts uses to claim that no explosions were heard.

Roberts then criticizes Dr. Steven Jones and his claims about squibs ejecting from the building. While I agree that the southwest corner of WTC7 showed no ejections, the north side of the facade clearly exhibited ejections of dust and debris. Of course, Roberts simply hand waves away any ejections from the building, claiming that it was due to… you guessed it. Air pressure. However, any pulverized debris would not have been formed until the building had already collapsed to that level. And the ejections could not have been smoke from the fires since, according to the NIST report on WTC7, the fires never reached that level of the building and the sprinklers were working on the upper floors. Also, the smoke from the lower floors could not have reached that level of the building, according to the FEMA report.
Concrete floor slabs provided vertical compartmentalization to limit fire and smoke spread between floors. -FEMA report, section 5.3.3
Roberts also makes issue of the east penthouse collapsing into WTC7, not realizing that the collapse of the penthouse is problematic enough on its own.

By simply selecting these few issues concerning WTC7, Roberts conviently ignores several other characteristics of the building’s collapse that point to demolition, including:

• The collapse started from the bottom.
• The onset of the collapse was sudden.
• The collapse was total.
• The building fell in a near-symmetrical fashion.
• Its acceleration approximated that of a free-falling object.
• The debris from the building ended up in a fairly small pile almost entirely within its footprint.

These are all standard features of a demolition that Roberts makes no mention of.

• 22:48 FDNY Chief Daniel Nigro on conspiracist claims

This next part of Roberts’ video is simply a statement from Chief Daniel Nigro concerning his thoughts on conspiracy theories. This merely a person’s opinion, and addresses none of the scientific evidence which points to demolition.

• 23:00 Collapse of WTC 7 expected by all. On-scene account by FDNY firefighter Miller of Ladder 15, says building leaning, no way to fight fires, pull back from WTC 7

At this point, Roberts chooses to address the issue of the foreknowledge of WTC7’s collapse. He asserts that because the firefighters expected the building to collapse, the collapse was not unusual. However, Professor Graeme MacQueen has demonstrated that the foreknowledge of the buildings collapse is extremely suspicious. Also, any structural damage Building 7 might have sustained is irrelevant, as NIST claims that the fires alone brought the building down and that it would have collapsed even with no damage.

• 25:08 Brent Blanchard of Protec, who spoke with demolitions experts on the scene and documented the clean-up process, on conspiracist claims

Roberts then features a statement by Protec employee Brent Blanchard. Several of Blanchard’s claims about the collapse of the WTC have long been refuted by Jim Hoffman.

• 25:45 WTC 7 structural engineer Irwin Cantor on conspiracist claims

At this point of Roberts’ video, he shows a statement from Irwin Cantor, WTC7’s structural engineer. It’s important to note that Cantor makes no mention of “conspiracist claims.” Others have studied NIST’s claims about what caused the collapse and have found numerous problems.

• 26:00 New WTC 7: safety and structural features

Roberts then shows us a video about how the new WTC7 is being constructed. Regardless of whatever upgrades were given to the new WTC7, no building like the original WTC7 has ever collapsed from fire.

• 27:47 "Architect for 9/11 truth" Richard Gage gives presentation including audio deception

The video proceeds to criticize Richard Gage for using a video of a demolition with no audio. Again, we have already covered that the sound issue is explainable. If this is greatest flaw Roberts can find in Gage’s presentation, then he’s a long way away from debunking anyone.

• 28:36 AE911Truth and STJ911truth member and mechanical engineer Tony Szamboti claims Silverstein said WTC 7 was brought down for safety reasons, and claims the towers showed upward explosions.

Roberts then goes on to criticize Tony Szamboti for his claims about Larry Silverstein and the ejections of debris from the Towers. While there does appear to be no upward ejections from the Towers, there are outward and even downward ejections that are clearly smoking guns. As for Silverstein, I have never seen the program Szamboti is referring to, but we now have conformation that Silverstein did discuss demolishing Building 7 on 9/11. Roberts addresses none of Szamboti’s scholarly technical essays on the collapse of the Towers, and decides to simply attack some of his lesser claims.

• 29:49 Leading conspiracists claim pyroclastic flows resulted from use of mysterious explosives.

Roberts next criticizes members of the Truth Movement for claiming the huge dust clouds from the collapse of the Towers were “pyroclastic flows.” Again, here is an instance where I agree with one of Roberts’ claims. The dust clouds were clearly not pyroclastic flows, but they were extremely reminiscent of the types of dust clouds produced by controlled demolitions. As David Ray Griffin points out in his book Debunking 9/11 Debunking:
This is a common feature of collapses produced by explosives, as can be seen in videos of controlled demolitions of structures such as Seattle’s Kingdome and the Reading Grain Facility, which are available on the Web. The dust clouds produced at the Twin Towers differ only by being much bigger, which is what could have been predicted, given the fact that these buildings were much larger, so they would have required more powerful, and a greater number of, explosives. –Debunking 9/11 Debunking, pg. 188
Also, several members of the movement have only referred to the clouds as “pyroclastic-like,” including Richard Gage on his updated AE9/11Truth website.

• 32:49 Was all or most of the WTC tower concrete turned to a fine powder?

Roberts goes on to address one of the more controversial issues about the collapse of the WTC: the pulverization of the concrete. Admittedly, the pulverization of the concrete has been exaggerated by members of the movement. However, although the concrete was not completely pulverized, the concrete at Ground Zero appears to be very similar to concrete after a controlled demolition.



• 34:55 Conspiracists claim tons of explosives – or a sci-fi mystery weapon was used. Video of 100-ton TNT blast

Roberts then takes issue with the fact that the types of explosives Dr. Jones and others have suggested were used would not have pulverized the concrete anyway. However, this is not necessarily true. Given the moisture content of concrete, elevating it to a sufficient temperature would cause explosive spalling. If large quantities of aluminothermics such as thermate and nanothermite were used to sever structural members, the excess heat could have caused such spalling.

• 36:02 Steven Jones, David Ray Griffin, and Richard Gage can't make up their minds: explosives, thermate, or super-secret mystery weapons?

Roberts next proceeds to criticize members of the movement for claiming different types of explosives were used in the demolition of the Towers. As Roberts puts it they “can’t make up their minds.” However, Richard Gage has responded to these weak criticisms.

• 37:51 Tons of TNT equivalent were stored in the towers – gravitational potential energy

Roberts’ video then goes into the fact that there was already an enormous amount of energy in the buildings to begin with: gravitational potential energy. He claims that because the Towers fell at less than the rate of free fall, the buildings actually absorbed a huge amount of energy. However, this is the case in any controlled demolition. Buildings brought down with explosives rarely, if ever, fall at the rate of free fall and their collapses clearly absorb a large amount of energy. But according to the official reports, no explosives were used to demolish the Towers, so how did they collapse in time intervals consistent with controlled demolitions?

• 38:27 Mysteriously-expanding dust clouds? Alex Jones accuses, Jim Hoffman investigates.

The next part of Roberts’ video deals mainly with Jim Hoffman’s calculations about the expansion of the North Tower’s dust clouds. He claims that Hoffman did not take air pressure into account in his analysis. While Hoffman has acknowledged that his calculations are not perfect, he did in fact take air into account in his analysis.
Given that the Twin Towers' dust clouds behaved like pyroclastic flows, with distinct boundaries and rapidly expanding frontiers (averaging perhaps 35 feet/second on the ground for the first 30 seconds), it is doubtful that mixing with ambient air accounted for a significant fraction of their volume.
Note that Hoffman claims the clouds only behaved like pyroclastic flows, not that they actually were pyroclastic flows.

The idea that the falling debris could have caused the expansion of the clouds seems unlikely, as videos show that most of the debris hit the ground before the dust reached the ground.

• 41:05 So what caused THESE dust clouds?

Roberts next claims that the expansion of the clouds were not unusual because they happen in other controlled demolitions. Really. As we have already seen, this characteristic appears to be very consistent with explosive demolition.

• 43:05 Conspiracist papers published in engineering journals

This small section of Roberts’ video simply makes fun of the Truth Movement for not having any papers published in any science journals. However, the Truth Movement now currently has six papers published in peer-reviewed journals, with three of them being published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics.

• 43:26 The conspiracists' best and brightest run from. a tour guide

At this point, Roberts simply makes fun of the fact that members of the movement have not debated him. First of all, Richard Gage has debated Roberts. But perhaps the reason that many in the movement aren’t debating with Mr. Roberts is because they’ve been busy debating with actual scientists.

• 44:34 AE911truth & STJ911truth website statistics graphed

Here Roberts ridicules AE9/11Truth and STJ9/11Truth for their low statistics online. This clearly is in no way representative of how many people question the official story of 9/11. Polls show a broad skepticism among Americans of the official story of 9/11.

• 44:55 Structural engineer and WTC investigator Gene Corley on conspiracist methods – or lack thereof.

Roberts then shows a video of Gene Corley claiming that the Truth Movement has no “engineering basis for its conclusions. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are currently over 1400 architects and engineers from around the world who agree we need a new investigation into the collapse of the three WTC skyscrapers.

• 45:40 Suggestions for study: Bazant, Greening, Mackey, Rogers

The last part of Roberts’ video simply suggests that people read the works of debunkers such as Dr. Bazant, Ryan Mackey, and Dr. Frank Greening, all of whom have been responded to.

Conclusions:

As I said at the beginning, Roberts’ video provides nothing more than half-baked arguments and petty insults. His video does nothing to answer the question of why those buildings really collapsed. Ultimately, I would say Roberts wasted his time putting this video back online, and that this misguided tour guide should really try to rethink his position.

Saturday, November 6, 2010

Debunking Mark Roberts

Excerpt from "Taming the Beast: A Short History of the AE911Truth Debates":

The next debate took place on June 18, 2008, between Richard Gage, AIA, and Mark Roberts (a.k.a 'Gravy” on the James Randi Educational Forum) on the TV access show “Hardfire” with host John Clifton, past chair of the Libertarian Party of New York. Mark Roberts, a New York tour guide, said he has “no specific expertise” in 9-11 matters but became interested in 2006 when he heard some of the “conspiracy theories” and found them “suspect.”

Roberts could barely contain his hostility towards Gage, accusing him of lying several times and impugning his motives. The ill will Roberts brings to the discussion is evident in many of his online posts where he goes by the name of “Gravy.” One such post on a James Randi Educational Forum refers to “Gage and his gang of lazy, lying, despicable creeps,” which indicates that he doesn’t just disagree with his opposition; he despises them.

Towards the beginning of the debate Roberts said of Gage, “He's got a 542-slide presentation that he encourages everyone to see on his website.... I found 311 false statements, 114 misleading statements, and 137 logical fallacies.” He did not elaborate. Roberts took the approach that NIST fully explained everything; that anomalies, such as witnesses hearing explosions, simply didn't happen or the witnesses were mistaken. He also said the evidence of foreknowledge that Building 7 would collapse was simply a matter of experts thinking the building might fall because it had been damaged.
Excerpt from "Waiting for Seven: WTC 7 Collapse Warnings in the FDNY Oral Histories" by Prof. Graeme MacQueen:

Mark Roberts, for example, has set forth a detailed collection of collapse warnings, many of which are drawn from the oral histories of the New York Fire Department, [2] and has tried to use these to support his hypothesis of a natural collapse.[3] Ryan Mackey has used this material in a similar fashion.[4] Since I find Mackey’s reasoning more clear than Roberts’ I will take him in this paper as representative of this position.
Response to Mark Roberts' “WTC Not a Demolition” video

He oughta know better: Mark Roberts and the iron spherules

Email debates, and more about Mark Roberts

Mark Roberts, an Apologist for EPA Lies

Mark Roberts: 9/11 "Debunker" or just Dishonest?



Factual back-up, sources, and further research materials.

Saturday, April 4, 2009

Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe

Big News! Mark Roberts was debunked by a paper published today in a peer-reviewed chemical physics journal.



9/11blogger.com
Submitted by Reprehensor on Sat, 04/04/2009 - 6:25am.

Digg and reddit. (See also new interviews with Jones and Ryan here.)
From Dr. Steven Jones;

Formally published in a peer-reviewed Chemical Physics journal, today:

“Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe” by Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven E. Jones, Kevin R. Ryan, Frank M. Legge, Daniel Farnsworth, Gregg Roberts, James R. Gourley and Bradley R. Larsen

The paper ends with this sentence: “Based on these observations, we conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material.”

In short, the paper explodes the official story that “no evidence” exists for explosive/pyrotechnic materials in the WTC buildings.

What is high-tech explosive/pyrotechnic material in large quantities doing in the WTC dust? Who made tons of this stuff and why? Why have government investigators refused to look for explosive residues in the WTC aftermath?

These are central questions raised by this scientific study.

The peer-review on this paper was grueling, with pages of comments by referees. The tough questions the reviewers raised led to months of further experiments. These studies added much to the paper, including observation and photographs of iron-aluminum rich spheres produced as the material is ignited in a Differential Scanning Calorimeter (see Figures 20, 25 and 26).

The nine authors undertook an in-depth study of unusual red-gray chips found in the dust generated during the destruction of the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001. The article states: “The iron oxide and aluminum are intimately mixed in the red material. When ignited in a DSC device the chips exhibit large but narrow exotherms occurring at approximately 430 ˚C, far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite. Numerous iron-rich spheres are clearly observed in the residue following the ignition of these peculiar red/gray chips. The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.” The images and data plots deserve careful attention.

Some observations about the production of this paper:

1. First author is Professor Niels Harrit of Copenhagen University in Denmark, an Associate Professor of Chemistry. He is an expert in nano-chemistry; current research activities and his photo can be found here:
http://cmm.nbi.ku.dk/
Molecular Structures on Short and Ultra Short Timescales
A Centre under the Danish National Research Foundation

The Centre for Molecular Movies was inaugurated 29th November 2005, at the Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen. The Centre is made possible through a five year grant from the Danish National Research Foundation (see e.g. http://www.dg.dk/). We aim to obtain real time “pictures” of how atoms are moving while processes are taking place in molecules and solid materials, using ultrashort pulses of laser light and X-rays. The goal is to understand and in turn influence, at the atomic level, the structural transformations associated with such processes.

The Centre combines expertise form Risø National Laboratory, University of Copenhagen, and the Technical University of Denmark in structural investigation of matter by synchrotron X-ray based techniques, femtosecond laser spectroscopy, theoretical insight in femtosecond processes, and the ability to tailor materials, and design sample systems for optimal experimental conditions.”

We understand that the Dean of Prof. Harrit’s college, Niels O Andersen, appears as the first name on the Editorial Advisory Board of the Bentham Science journal where the paper was published.

2. Second author is Dr. Jeffrey Farrer of BYU. http://www.physics.byu.edu/images/people/farrer.jpg

3. Dr. Farrer is featured in an article on page 11 of the BYU Frontiers magazine, Spring 2005: “Dr. Jeffrey Farrer, lab director for TEM” (TEM stands for Transmission Electron Microscopy). The article notes: “The electron microscopes in the TEM lab combine to give BYU capabilities that are virtually unique… rivaling anything built worldwide.” The article is entitled: “Rare and Powerful Microscopes Unlock Nano Secrets,” which is certainly true as regards the discoveries of the present paper.

4. Kudos to BYU for permitting Drs. Farrer and Jones and physics student Daniel Farnsworth to do the research described in the paper and for conducting internal reviews of the paper. Dr. Farrer was formerly first author on this paper. But after internal review of the paper, BYU administrators evidently disallowed him from being first author on ANY paper related to 9/11 research (this appears to be their perogative, but perhaps they will explain). Nevertheless, the paper was approved for publication with Dr. Farrer’s name and affiliation listed and we congratulate BYU for this. We stand by Dr. Farrer and congratulate his careful scientific research represented in this paper.

5. Perhaps now there will finally be a review of the SCIENCE explored by Profs. Harrit and Jones and by Drs. Farrer and Legge and their colleagues, as repeatedly requested by these scientists. We challenge ANY university or established laboratory group to perform such a review. This paper will be a good place to start, along with two other peer-reviewed papers in established journals involving several of the same authors:

Fourteen Points of Agreement with Official Government Reports on the World Trade Center Destruction

Authors: Steven E. Jones, Frank M. Legge, Kevin R. Ryan, Anthony F. Szamboti, James R. Gourley
The Open Civil Engineering Journal, pp.35-40, Vol 2
http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCIEJ/2008/00000002/00000001/35TOCIEJ.SGM

Environmental anomalies at the World Trade Center: evidence for energetic materials
Authors: Kevin R. Ryan, James R. Gourley, and Steven E. Jones
The Environmentalist, August, 2008
http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/

6. James Hoffman has written three essays further explaining the implications and results of the paper. Thank you, Jim, for this work! http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/index.html

7. Important features of the research have been independently corroborated by Mark Basile in New Hampshire and by physicist Frédéric Henry-Couannier in France., proceeding from earlier scientific reports on these discoveries (e.g., by Prof. Jones speaking at a Physics Dept. Colloquium at Utah Valley University last year.) We understand that details will soon be forthcoming from these independent researchers.

Now read the paper for yourself, and let your voice regarding these discoveries be heard!
http://www.bentham.org/open/tocpj/openaccess2.htm then click on “Active Thermitic Materials Discovered…”

Direct page link: (D/L PDF at source...)
http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM...

Related Info:

Steven Jones Tells "9/11 Debunkers" to Put up or Shut up!

More About That Exploding Paint

Saturday, February 28, 2009

Honest Mistakes Are "Big News" to Mark Roberts

9/11 "debunker" Mark Roberts states that he has "only spent a few hours updating" his site "since early 2008" and that he "won't be updating it in the future unless big news arises." Apparently, an honest mistake constitutes big news to Mr. Roberts:

February, 2009: Truther competence at its finest. A guy who who runs a blog titled "Debunking the Debunkers" trumpets that he's debated me, publishes the debate, and spreads it around the internet. The problem? He wasn't debating me or anyone who claimed to be me. I guess the question "Are you Mark Roberts?" never occurred to this person, who bills himself as an "investigative journalist."
First off, Stewart doesn't run this blog, I do, I'm sure that was just an honest mistake though. When I made Stewart aware of this he stated:

"I do like the fact that Roberts assumes that I run 'Debunking the Debunkers' when I am clearly listed as a 'Contributor'. See how easy it is to make false assumptions?"

After being informed that "a correction and apology has now been posted," Roberts stated:

That's good. He was going to keep the post pulled, but I asked him to restore it and add the correction. Otherwise no one who was linked to it from other blogs or sites would know about the error, and would assume that I'd been "pwned" as described in the comments at those sites.
The fact of the matter is Stewart offered to have the post removed, but Roberts requested the post to remain with an apology as the headline. Stewart didn't say he was definitely going to keep it pulled, and of course in the end that would be my decision, as I run the blog.

After seeing Robert's statement I informed him that:

I was always planning on putting it back up with a correction and apology from Stewart. When I first heard about it on Care2 I posted...

'Thanks for the info RU. I'm sure this was an honest mistake, I'll get more info, and pull the blog post until I know more.'"
Again, this is just an honest mistake based on his previous mistake of assuming Stewart runs this blog. Furthermore, Stewart pointed out:

"He did seem very understanding and gracious at the time, but I find it curious that he brags about this as an example of incompetent 'Truther' research without a word about 'Clunkity' falsely posting Robert's website as a contact source."

What all of this teaches me is that my idea of "big news" must be different than Roberts.

For instance, I think it's big news that Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth now has 613 members, including at least 30 structural engineers, 3 high-rise architects, and over 3000 other petition signers, including A&E students, metallurgists, physicists, scientists, explosives experts and demolition contractors.

I think it's big news that former President Jimmy Carter recently stated that he supports calls for a new 9/11 investigation.

I think it's big news that a former fighter pilot for the U.S. Navy, and the U.S. Air Force, have called for a new 9/11 investigation this year. As well as a commercial airline pilot, a Boeing 747 Senior First Officer, a FAA certified airline transport pilot and flight instructor, a NASA electrical engineering technician and U.S. Marine Corps veteran, among others.

In closing, was this all worthy of a correction, apology, and forum discussion, sure, big news, hardly, especially considering that Mark has recently had his own problems with mistaken identities.

Related Info:

Excerpt from "Taming the Beast: A Short History of the AE911Truth Debates":
The next debate took place on June 18, 2008, between Richard Gage, AIA, and Mark Roberts (a.k.a 'Gravy” on the James Randi Educational Forum) on the TV access show “Hardfire” with host John Clifton, past chair of the Libertarian Party of New York. Mark Roberts, a New York tour guide, said he has “no specific expertise” in 9-11 matters but became interested in 2006 when he heard some of the “conspiracy theories” and found them “suspect.”

Roberts could barely contain his hostility towards Gage, accusing him of lying several times and impugning his motives. The ill will Roberts brings to the discussion is evident in many of his online posts where he goes by the name of “Gravy.” One such post on a James Randi Educational Forum refers to “Gage and his gang of lazy, lying, despicable creeps,” which indicates that he doesn’t just disagree with his opposition; he despises them.

Towards the beginning of the debate Roberts said of Gage, “He's got a 542-slide presentation that he encourages everyone to see on his website.... I found 311 false statements, 114 misleading statements, and 137 logical fallacies.” He did not elaborate. Roberts took the approach that NIST fully explained everything; that anomalies, such as witnesses hearing explosions, simply didn't happen or the witnesses were mistaken. He also said the evidence of foreknowledge that Building 7 would collapse was simply a matter of experts thinking the building might fall because it had been damaged.
Excerpt from "Waiting for Seven: WTC 7 Collapse Warnings in the FDNY Oral Histories" by Prof. Graeme MacQueen:

Mark Roberts, for example, has set forth a detailed collection of collapse warnings, many of which are drawn from the oral histories of the New York Fire Department, [2] and has tried to use these to support his hypothesis of a natural collapse.[3] Ryan Mackey has used this material in a similar fashion.[4] Since I find Mackey’s reasoning more clear than Roberts’ I will take him in this paper as representative of this position.
He oughta know better: Mark Roberts and the iron spherules

Email debates, and more about Mark Roberts

Mark Roberts, an Apologist for EPA Lies

Mark Roberts: 9/11 "Debunker" or just Dishonest?



Factual back-up, sources, and further research materials.

Monday, December 15, 2008

Update!! An apology to Mark Roberts. - Face off with the Debunkers. Part 1 - Mark Roberts


UPDATED February 12, 2009:

It has come to my attention, from Mark Roberts himself, that the person I was debating here was not Roberts. While ClunkityClunk4Truth used Roberts homepage as a contact site on the his YouTube channel, it turns out Mark Roberts has never debated via YouTube comments.
I humbly apologize to Mark Roberts for this case of mistaken identities and publicly admit my error in believing I had debated him. While we may disagree on this topic, Mr Roberts is an honorable man who has graciously corrected me and I hope to clear his name from any damage this error may have caused him.

I also apologize to my readers for the mistake and promise to be more cautious in the future. As Prison Planet's Paul Joseph Watson has pointed out in a similar error,"We're all trying to get to the truth here and we will issue retractions when we are led astray."

At Mark Roberts request, here is the original article as posted, keeping in mind that Clunkity is not Mr Roberts as I had incorrectly assumed. Again, my sincerest apologies and respect to Mr Roberts.
-Stewart Bradley

================================

Mark Roberts has been called "The Obi-wan Kenobi of debunkers" and gained fame as the "most effective" opposition to the 9/11 truth movement. Although he works as a New York City tour guide, he has dedicated a website against those who question the official version the 9/11 attack, and until recently hosted a 9/11 debunking YouTube channel under the name ClunkityClunk4Truth .

After reading his research and following many of his arguments with 9/11 researchers, some lasting for days, I decided to contact him and respectfully ask his opinion about a video I posted, " The 9/11 Cheney Connection", about the evidence of official complicity. The following is the transcript of our interaction. Because of YouTube's 500 character limit and prohibiting the use of URLs I have edited the content to keep topics to together and added links to referenced information. But you can read the original transcript in the comments section of the video to verify the content. Here is the original video along with the "rebuttal" video I refer to in the exchange.

"The 9/11 Cheney Connection"

"9/11 Cheney Rebuttal"

Stewart Bradley:
Thanks for replying Clunkity, and having watched many of your videos I have seen you point out many other ( 9/11) flaws. As a 7 year researcher I would agree with you that MUCH Truth research is based on speculation and cannot be proved, but do you really contend that ALL Truthers claims are bunk? If so, then I have found some anomalies that I would like some serious answers to, things that other debunkers have refused to address - "9/11 Cheney Connection."
Maybe you can help me? Thanks.

Mark Roberts ( ClunkityClunk4Truth ):
Your video is pretty misleading, I shall take a crack at it.

COMMENTS ON "9/11 CHENEY CONNECTION":

MR:
Your quotation of PNAC is misleading, as on pg. 74 it reads "In Europe, the Persian Gulf and East Asia, enduring U.S. security interests argue forcefully for an enduring American military presence." which, rather than what you're trying to put across, many countries ask for our military on their land.

SB:
I assume you've read the whole PNAC document (RAD). Do you deny the plan suggests a military intervention in the middle east to pursue a "Pax Americana" democratization of hostile nations? What do you think the overall plan suggests if not?

MR:
Where does this idea that false blips would be on the radar screens come from? Whose screens? Where does the idea that the drills were set by the Bush Administration for September?

SB:
There are lots of sites that describe how part of these drills inserted false radar blips. Google "wargames and drills masterlist" for just some. But the point is how all these drills were all scheduled to coincide with the real attack.

MR:
'Possibly contributing, with continued radar inserts, to the presence of "ghost planes" like the phantom Flight 11 that distracted fighters from Flights 77 and 93.'
From the link you sent me to. Doesn't prove that false blips were put on radar screens nor provides any source that states Cheney ordered the NORAD drills.

SB:
Air traffic controllers claim they were still tracking what they thought were hijacked planes long after all 4 of the real planes had crashed. This implies that false radar blips remained on their screens after all 4 planes went down, long after the military claims they purged the phantom war-game-related radar signals.

And as in the "Rebuttal", when Bush signed the May 2001 order, Cheney was put in charge of exercises. You still elude the point as why they were all set for 9/11?

MR:
'what they thought were hijacked planes'
Now compare this to:
'false radar blips remained on their screens after all 4 planes went down'
But all the ATCs say is they were tracking planes assumed, incorrectly, to be hijacked. Did those flights actually exist?

'the point as why they were all set for 9/11?'
Which of the NORAD operations were not run for more than a year? Were the drills held other times only for them to then be set for 9/11?

SB:
If those flight were real they would have had transponder signals identifying them from the "phantom" flights.

And Google "ONE 9/11 WAR GAME NOW IN MAINSTREAM PRESS" for more details on the drills.

MR:
Your source implies that Dick Cheney would be coordinating the NORAD drills since he was put in place of overseeing drills related to WMDs. That makes no sense. Other than that the article does nothing for me.

SB:
Bush's mandate created the Office of National Preparedness in FEMA, overseen by Dick Cheney. This included all "training and planning" within the Departments of Defense. If Cheney did not plan these drills himself then whoever did was under Cheney's command.

Please. I know you are intelligent enough to understand this yet you continue to dodge the relevant question of why this unusual number of drills were scheduled during the time of the real attack.

MR:
"67 scrambles claim"
Assuming those 67 scrambles were indeed successful, those intercepts occured outside the continental U.S. by NORAD. NORAD's pre-9/11 mission has been to defend America's skies from foreign threats. NORAD's pre-9/11 mission did not deal in hijacked flights within the U.S. intended to be used as missles. Regardless, aircraft were scrambled by NEADS but were not given enough time to intercept any flights.

SB:
If you suggest NORAD did not monitor domestic US airspace then why had they already conducted drills simulating hijacking of planes from inside the US airspace? To prepare for something they were not expecting?

Regardless - if aircraft were scrambled according to the old standard hijacking procedures they could have been in time, but Rumsfeld changed these proceedures. Why? And why was this change in SOP not discussed by the 9/11 Commission?

MR:
'why had they already conducted drills simulating hijacking of planes from inside the US airspace'
What NORAD drill included hijacked flights originating from within continental U.S airspace?

'if aircraft were scrambled...'
It took the fighter jet an hour and a half to reach Payne Stewart's Learjet even with its transponder on. Time from scramble order matters too.

'Rumsfeld changed these proceedures'
I thought Dick did?

'change in SOP'
Nothing really changed.
1997 SOP document:

"In the event of a hijacking, the NMCC will be notified by the most expeditious means by the FAA. The NMCC will monitor the situation and forward all requests or proposals for DOD military assistance for aircraft piracy (hijacking) to the Secretary of Defense for approval."

2001 SOP changes:

"In the event of a hijacking, the NMCC will be notified by the most expeditious means by the FAA. The NMCC will, with the exception of immediate responses as authorized by reference D, forward requests for DOD assistance to the Secretary of Defense for approval."

So what changed? Redundacy has been dropped and some words have been switched. There's no 'there' there.

SB:
USA Today reported in April 2004 that NORAD had run exercises before 9/11 simulating suicide hijacking attacks: Most of these drills imagined hijackings originating overseas, but USA Today noted one operation, planned in July 2001 and conducted later, that involved planes from airports in Utah and Washington State that were "hijacked." This drill was "conducted later" than July 2001, but not after September 11, and the date is apparently classified.

Rumsfeld, as I stated in my "rebuttal" video, signed the order at the request of Cheney, making the distinction that approval of the Secretary of Defense, ( or higher) was required before and military aircraft could respond.

MR:
You misquote Mineta's testimony about what happened in the bunker. The exchange with Hamilton indicated that the order told in the Mineta recollection was a shoot-down order by Bush:

"We had that order given, I think it was by the President, that authorized the shooting down of commercial aircraft that were suspected to be controlled by terrorists. Were you there when that order was given?"

And later Mineta states that he "subsequently" found out what the order was.
It should be noted that first quoted person was Commissioner Lee Hamilton.

SB:
Mineta still stands by his testimony that he was referring to Flight 77 nearing the Pentagon when Cheney issued his "of course the order still stands" quote. This was before the Pentagon was hit. He has clarified this many times.

The 9/11 commission and the media continue misquoting Mineta saying it was in reference to Flight 93.

Yet Cheney's unsworn interview testimony is still contradicted by Mineta, Clark, NORAD, NEADS, and NMCC. Shouldn't he have given his testimony under oath?

MR:
For Mineta to have his time right then not only must Cheney be wrong, but so too the Secret Service logs (which dicuss Cheney being taken to a underground hallway for protection at around 9:30am when the first reports of a unidentified aircraft came through), the Whitehouse phone logs (which showed when the President and Vice President discussed the shoot down order), the news reporting of the Whitehouse evacuation...

(which reported people running from the white house and nearby buildings at 9:45am, 25 mintes after Mineta claims it happened), and the testimony of all the others that were there, including Mrs Cheney (who arrived at 9:50am, yet whom Mineta said was there before he arrived at 9:20am) and the officer who was speaking to Cheney. Either everyone else in that room at the time is lying, or Mineta got the time wrong. Which is more likely?

SB:
The 9/11 Commission admits the 9:37 entry time for Cheney was based on the Secret Service report alarm data and is undocumented, while Mineta's early arrival testimony is consistent with reports from Richard Clark, Condi Rice, Karl Rove, White House photographer David Bohrer, and ABC, BBC, and WSJ. This is discussed in great detail in chapter 2 of David Ray Griffin's book "9/11 Contradictions."

( Mark Roberts then comments on a separate post from "FightTheElite", not the video.)
MR:
'What about the 3 supposed suicide terrorist hijackers who after 9/11 turned out to be alive and outraged?'

Case of mistaken identity. Those who were listed after 9/11 as hijackers and believed they were wrongly accused had different names, birth dates, family members, etc.

SB:
Although I don't mention the hijackers in my video, FBI director Robert Meuller did announce the hijackers were probably using stolen identities.

MR:
But the final list of hijackers and their identities are unique to them, as those who feel were wrongly accused turned out to have different birth dates, birth places, occupation and family than those named as the terrorists.

SB:
If these are the true hijackers, then 3 of the hijackers had been trained at the Pensacola navel air station, one attended Brooks Air Force Base Aerospace Medical School, 2 attended the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, and Mohamed Atta himself attended the International Officer's School at Maxwell Air Force Base.
Men trained by our own military?
And several were issued Visas despite being on the terrorist watch list. Is this any less incriminating?

MR:
There were no hijackers training in Florida. Again the three individuals listed at the Pensacola station have different birth dates from the hijackers listed.
The DLI is a cultural learning center for the DoD, were the hijackers learning Spanish while planning 9/11?

'Men trained by our own military?'
If that was the case, then that means the 'hijackers are still alive' conspiracy is based on a dumb assumption: The evil NWO wouldn't kill those claimed to have perpetrated 9/11.

SB:
"No hijackers training in Florida?
What about the two pilots who trained at Huffman Aviation flight school in Venice, Fla. and a third who trained at Florida Flight Training. Both foreign owned flight schools, one with CIA connections, as reported by Daniel Hopsicker?

Again, I did not include anything about the hijackers in my video and I most certainly did not mention any NWO.

( At this point there are no further replies from Mark Roberts on the "9/11 Cheney Connection" video. Two days later I saw another post from Roberts on the video,"Bamboozled again by 9/11 Truthers" )

MR:
The only liars are Truthers.

SB:
"The only liars are Truthers."
Oh really? I do appreciate you taking a crack at debunking the "9/11 Cheney Connection" video. You could find only a few minor discrepancies, ( which I then rebutted) and never addressed the actual case against Cheney the video lays out. Doesn't that mean anything to you? Or are you so devoted to your ideology that you can no longer think objectively and admit when "Truthers" might have a legitimate point?
Sorry but I thought you were smarter than that.

MR:
I quit trying to talk to a brick wall, sorry stool.

( My reply is then blocked from the video comments, so I posted my reply on ClunkityClunk4Truth's channel comments.)

SB:
"Stool"? Clever.
So you raised minor questions about my video, and I answered them in a clear and respectful way, so you write me off as a "brick wall?"
You don't seem to have a problem endlessly debating the "brick walls" who claim WTC demolitions.

I assume you are not used to loosing debates because I have done nothing more than defend my position. Did I hurt your pride?
I apologize if I have offended you, but I was expecting more from someone with your expert reputation.

( No reply and end of interaction.)

It's tough to imagine from this dialogue how Roberts could have gained such fame as an "expert debunker" when the man clearly avoided talking about the evidence I presented and changed the subject whenever he was shown to be incorrect. It was a week or two later when YouTube suspended his channel due to copyright violations.

Related:


Honest Mistakes are "big news" to Mark Roberts

Face off with the Debunkers, Part 2 - Ryan Owens

Mark Roberts: 9/11 "Debunker" or just Dishonest?

Richard Gage, AIA, debates Mark Roberts, Tour Guide: NY TV: "HardFire"

Mark Roberts, an Apologist for EPA Lies

Email debates, and more about Mark Roberts

He oughta know better: Mark Roberts and the iron spherules

The errors of Mark Roberts