From David Slesinger:
A debunker has this evidence that Mineta was wrong. Care to comment with links?
My Reply:
Many truthers have now concluded Mineta was wrong as well it appears. I haven't looked into the new material but I'd probably concede the point. I wouldn't say the NORAD case rests on that piece of evidence by any means. The bottom line is that no shoot-down orders were issued until after the attacks were already over, a timespan of over two hours. It seems very clear from the evidence that no shoot down order was given until 10:20 and none relayed to the military until 10:31. There is a lot of weird decisions and non action in that span of time. The story as is consists of 3, or some contend 4, mutually contradictory versions of events and admitted lies. Top officials from NORAD and the FAA received promotions, as opposed to being charged with perjury and having to provide documents with data that would prove that the jet fighters were acceptably responsive, given the past response time averages. That's where this story ends unless the gov ever gives us more data.
James Dorman Responds:
JM,
A debunker has this evidence that Mineta was wrong. Care to comment with links?
There's a lot of evidence, so I'm not going to cite it all here. There are a series of photos with Mineta, Mary Matalin, Cheney and others that disproves his story. Here's a link to the 356 photos — Vice President Cheney on September 11, 2001—so that you can peruse them at leisure.
Here he is in his office watching Bush live sometime after 9:30 am: Vice President Cheney Watches Television
Here's Cheney in his office at 9:36 am: Vice President Cheney Watches Television
Someone went to the trouble of watching the TV archives to verify the time, since it's blurry in the Cheney picture. (You can verify this yourself at Understanding 9/11)
That puts Cheney in his office less than 4 minutes before Flight 77 crashed, which means he didn't enter PEOC until after it crashed.
Here's Cheney at 10:03 in the PEOC: Vice President Cheney with Senior Staff in the President's Emergency Operations Center (PEOC)
Here's Mineta walking in the door 5 shots later: Vice President Cheney with Senior Staff in the President's Emergency Operations Center (PEOC)
And 7 photographs later, it's 10:22.
So Mineta arrived there sometime between 10:03 and 10:22. In other words, at least 25 minutes after the Pentagon crash.
My Reply:
Many truthers have now concluded Mineta was wrong as well it appears. I haven't looked into the new material but I'd probably concede the point. I wouldn't say the NORAD case rests on that piece of evidence by any means. The bottom line is that no shoot-down orders were issued until after the attacks were already over, a timespan of over two hours. It seems very clear from the evidence that no shoot down order was given until 10:20 and none relayed to the military until 10:31. There is a lot of weird decisions and non action in that span of time. The story as is consists of 3, or some contend 4, mutually contradictory versions of events and admitted lies. Top officials from NORAD and the FAA received promotions, as opposed to being charged with perjury and having to provide documents with data that would prove that the jet fighters were acceptably responsive, given the past response time averages. That's where this story ends unless the gov ever gives us more data.
James Dorman Responds:
From The Eleventh Day:
It would have been Unthinkable for the U.S. Military to down a civilian airliner without a clear order from the President, as commander - in - chief. In his absence, the authority belonged to the Secretary of Defense,Donald Rumsfeld...........The Vice President was not in the chain of command. Page 136
Something I'd been trying to point out well before this book was published. But the book is a more "legitimate" source than "Jimd3100".
In other words.....who cares what orders Cheney was giving? I've looked at the pics, but I don't spend time trying to analyze parts found at the pentagon, because a passenger jet hit it. Same with these pics, Cheney-Mineta-PEOC---it doesn't really matter. Barking at this tree IMO is a waste of time and effort.
I'm more interested in this tree:
Why is Cheney giving orders to the military?
The President was "out of the loop"? LOL! We all saw him reading my pet goat, when he and the rest of the world knew we were under attack. From there he went on Air Force One. .......
Air Force One is equipped with advanced secure communications equipment, allowing the aircraft to function as a mobile command center in the event of an attack on the United States.
So? Why is Cheney in charge of the Military?
You are correct that the military was finally given shoot down authority at 10:31. However that authority still had not been passed on to any pilots. The pilots are the ones who will shoot down planes. Military officers refused to pass that order on to the pilots because they did not want to go to prison, because...
The Vice President was not in the chain of command.
The pilots were not given authority to shoot down planes until well after 11:00.
Actually we can expect to be challenged on this. And would be found to be technically incorrect, because......
General Wherley was talking to a Secret Service agent who claimed to be speaking on behalf of Vice President Cheney. The guidance he passed to Wherley was to send up fighters with orders to take out any aircraft that threatened the White House or Capitol. Wherley translated this in military terms as "weapons free," meaning that the decision to shoot rested in the cockpit of the lead pilot. General Wherley passed this instruction to the pilots that launched at 10:42. Neither the president,the vice president, the secretary of defense, the NORAD commander, nor anyone at NEADS was aware that morning that the Andrews Air Force Base fighters were airborne outside the military chain of command, operating under different rules of engagement from the Langley fighters in the same airspace. page-230-231
http://www.amazon.com/Ground-
General Wherley was talking to a Secret Service agent who claimed to be speaking on behalf of Vice President Cheney. The guidance he passed to Wherley was to send up fighters with orders to take out any aircraft that threatened the White House or Capitol. Wherley translated this in military terms as "weapons free," meaning that the decision to shoot rested in the cockpit of the lead pilot. General Wherley passed this instruction to the pilots that launched at 10:42. Neither the president,the vice president, the secretary of defense, the NORAD commander, nor anyone at NEADS was aware that morning that the Andrews Air Force Base fighters were airborne outside the military chain of command, operating under different rules of engagement from the Langley fighters in the same airspace. page-230-231
http://www.amazon.com/Ground-
But this source still shows that a select few were given shoot down authority(still outside the chain of command)at 10:42. The only pilots that had the authority at that point.
The authorization was not passed to any of the pilots controlled by NEADS. Colonel Marr explained to the 9-11 Commission that he refused to pass it on because he was unsure of its ramifications. United 93 was confirmed crashed at 10:15, and there were no other targets by 10:32. Major Nasypany and Major Fox both told the commission staff that they did not pass the order to the pilots over New York or Washington because they were unsure how the pilots would, or should, act as a result. - Page 229
http://www.amazon.com/Ground-
"Rumsfeld, once he had finally settled into his place at the command center, got to work on the "rules of engagement" for the fighter pilots. This was an irrelevant exercise for he did not complete and issue them until 1:p.m., hours after the last hijacker had died."
https://books.google.com/
So, really....the pilots were never authorized to shoot down planes. Except for the ones sent to protect the White House and Capital. But even then only at 10:42. When there were no targets, And it was an illegal order.
The authorization was not passed to any of the pilots controlled by NEADS. Colonel Marr explained to the 9-11 Commission that he refused to pass it on because he was unsure of its ramifications. United 93 was confirmed crashed at 10:15, and there were no other targets by 10:32. Major Nasypany and Major Fox both told the commission staff that they did not pass the order to the pilots over New York or Washington because they were unsure how the pilots would, or should, act as a result. - Page 229
http://www.amazon.com/Ground-
"Rumsfeld, once he had finally settled into his place at the command center, got to work on the "rules of engagement" for the fighter pilots. This was an irrelevant exercise for he did not complete and issue them until 1:p.m., hours after the last hijacker had died."
https://books.google.com/
So, really....the pilots were never authorized to shoot down planes. Except for the ones sent to protect the White House and Capital. But even then only at 10:42. When there were no targets, And it was an illegal order.
The Eleventh Day points out something else.......
The Vice President was not in the chain of command.
The Generals understood that. In an earlier exercise, one that postulated a suicide mission involving a
jet aimed at Washington, they had said shooting it down would require an "executive" order. Page 136
So this is simple enough. What was Bush's response when the 9-11 commission asked how did it come to be that he was not commander in chief when the nation needed it's commander in chief more than ever? How could they not ask that?
That's still classified.
What was Rumsfeld's response when asked why he was not giving orders?
That's still classified.
What is not classified is this horrible horrible answer.......
9-11 Commission:
"The President apparently spoke to Secretary Rumsfeld for the first time that morning shortly after 10:00. No one can recall the content of this conversation, but it was a brief call in which the subject of shootdown authority was not discussed. page 60/585
BTW-the reference for that sentence was D Rumsfeld's interview. Still classified.
So, these pictures, and the peoc timeline to me is like trying to identify plane parts at the pentagon. Why bother?
If you or me did what Rumsfeld or Bush did (desert their posts) we would have been court-martialed.
Charging anyone with perjury would open up an inconvenient(to say the least) "can of worms"
I'm suggesting removing the Cheney-Mineta-PEOC-Orders and replacing it with why is Cheney playing the role of Commander in chief?
However- it doesn't "prove" 9-11 was an "inside job". But if you want to be nice. It proves they are all liars, and lying about unbelievable extreme incompetence. When does that incompetence turn into evil? After lying to the public to "protect their incompetence" they continue lying to protect their crime partners(The Saudis)and then continue lying to commit mass murder by pointing a finger at Iraq, and claiming they are connected to Al Qaeda. At what point is the public going to do its job and start holding their Government Accountable? And is the "truth movement" ever going to acknowledge that Islamic Extremism plays a large part in this mess?
Related:
Pumpitout Radio: Foreknowledge and Lack of Air Defense - NORAD Section Update 12/24/2014
