A plane did indeed crash in Shanksville
KJC24
YouTube.com
August 05, 2009
The debate that ensued...
KJC24:
All airplanes that were hijacked on 9/11 crashed within 43 minutes of being hijacked. So your 1 hour 53 minute number is completely irrelevant. I have no idea how you expect planes to be intercepted in 30 minutes of first signs of non-response, especially in a pre-9/11 world were domestic intercepts of aircraft are incredibly rare. Not to mention the confusion about which of the thousands of aircraft in the sky were hijacked and which ones weren't.
John-Michael P. Talboo:
KJC24 says: "I have no idea how you expect planes to be intercepted in 30 minutes."
"I knew within hours of the attacks on 9/11/2001 that it was an inside job. Based on my 11-year experience as an FAA Air Traffic Controller in the busy Northeast corridor, including hundreds of hours of training, briefings, air refuelings, low altitude bombing drills, being part of huge military exercises, daily military training exercises, interacting on a routine basis directly with NORAD radar personnel, and based on my own direct experience dealing with in-flight emergency situations, including two instances of hijacked commercial airliners, I state unequivocally; There is absolutely no way that four large commercial airliners could have flown around off course for 30 to 60 minutes on 9/11 without being intercepted and shot completely out of the sky by our jet fighters unless very highly placed people in our government and our military wanted it to happen." - Robin Hordon, Former FAA Air Traffic Controller at the Boston Air Route Traffic Control Center, located in Nashua, NH, 1970 - 1981. FAA certified commercial pilot. FAA certified Flight Instructor and certified Ground Instructor.KJC24 says: "Your 1 hour 53 minute number is completely irrelevant."
I didn't say the following to KJC24 at the time, but I should have!: No, it's not. This time span should have cut down individual intercept times because the military would be in the highest possible state of alertness. During this time specific actions could have been taken like redeploying the aircraft already in the air that had arrived too late in Manhattan towards the deviating planes headed for the capital.
Flight 77: The impact was 83 minutes after Flight 11 first went off course, and 58 minutes after the North Tower impact, and 40 minutes after the South Tower impact, yet the jet was not intercepted as it flew over the (normally) most heavily protected airspace in the United States, and in the world. - Source: http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/attack/flight77.html
KJC24:
He knew within minutes it was an inside job, but waited 5 years to tell us about it? Just when the truth movement was at its height of popularity? Colin Scoggins was the military liaison at Boston ARTCC on the morning of 9/11 and doesn't think it was an inside job. Boston ATC's on duty that morning were interviewed on TV and none thought there was a conspiracy. Once again dishonest truthers single out the words of a nut and hold them above those who know better. Remember, all planes crashed within 43 minutes of being hijacked, it wasn't always known which planes were hijacked and which weren't, some of them had their transponders turned off, and prior to 9/11, I doubt hijack suicide missions were part of any NORAD operating procedure. Payne Stewart's jet wasn't intercepted until 80 minutes (despite having its transponder on) after it stopped responding to ATC requests, so what makes you think that even a perfect response to the hijackings would have been enough time?
John-Michael P. Talboo:
Despite what Colin Scoggins says he believes, you are aware that he was interviewed at length for David Ray Griffin's book Debunking 9/11 Debunking, right? Both he and Robin Hordon were interviewed, and through their combined testimonies and research it is shown that the FAA's supposed slow response to the hijacked flights is not only inherently unbelievable, but also "in tension with several other reports."
When looking at the information about Flight 77 that I quoted to you it is clear that the Payne Stewart incident pales in comparison. Hordan stated that in his career he dealt with "two instances of hijacked commercial airliners" and that "there is absolutely no way that four large commercial airliners could have flown around off course for 30 to 60 minutes on 9/11 without being intercepted and shot completely out of the sky." Of course since he disagrees with your view he is a nut. Why he waited 5 years isn't relevant at all, there are plenty of good reasons one might not want to go public with such opinions.
As to transponders being turned off:
Helpful background information on the significance of transponder signals is provided in journalist and 9/11 critic Michael Rupert's Crossing the Rubicon. Ruppert explains that all commercial airliners are equipped with transponders--devices that identify the altitude and position of planes by means of radio signals to air traffic controllers (ATCs). When transponders go off, the plane can still be tracked in two dimensions, but the ATC can no longer pinpoint its altitude. At that point, the system is in emergency status and the offending plane appears on the consoles of all the local ATCs. Ruppert goes on to quote from the statement of a pilot, one Michael Guillaume, who explains that such a plane...But yes, there was a lot of confusion that day, much of it created by the war games.
"...is now a hazard to air navigation, and the controller's primary function of separating planes is now in jeopardy... If in addition to losing communication and transponder the flight starts to deviate from its last clearance, the whole system is in emergency condition. Alarms all over the country would be going off...
So we know that the traffic control system would be in panic mode within two or three minutes of the initial events. ... The odds are that many flights would be on patrol just offshore. It would be most improbable that even one commercial flight could go [astray] more than ten minutes without being intercepted... Interceptions are routine daily occurrences. The fact that they didn't happen under extreme provocation raises some serious questions..." - Source: http://www.bushstole04.com/911/david_ray_griffin911.htm
KJC24:
I'm not able to respond to your posts in detail due to lack of time. Most of the research I've done on 9/11 has been debunking the so-called demolition nonsense that troofers have put forward. I've never really studied the NORAD response. But I expect my next video will be about the NORAD intercepts, so you can wait for my full response then. As for what you said about transponders, it doesn't appear to be quite so simple since the ATC and NORAD were chasing AA11 long after it had already crashed into the WTC. I believe the transcripts are available for all to see regarding ATC and NORAD, and I don't believe for a moment the hundreds of people involved in those organisations and communications were "in on it". When it comes to a conspiracy involving 3,000 innocent lives in the US, you can't depend on keeping those people quiet, so no conspiracy would ever involve that many people. Politicians have been busted for much less with only a handful of witnesses.
John-Michael P. Talboo:
I await your video and will post a response. Here is some more info I beg that you consider:
KJC24 says: "troofers"
9/11 "Truthers" or "Twoofers"? You Decide...
KJC24 says: "demolition nonsense"
Scientists Find Explosives in World Trade Center Dust
KJC24 says: "As for what you said about transponders, it doesn't appear to be quite so simple since the ATC and NORAD were chasing AA11 long after it had already crashed into the WTC."
The traffic controllers at the Boston Center were reportedly very clear about the fate of AA 11. According to a story in the Christian Science Monitor two days after 9/11, flight controllers said that they never lost sight of the flight. Flight controller Mark Hodgkins later told ABC News: I watched the target of American 11 the whole way down. New York Times and Newhouse News stories reported that as soon as the Boston flight controllers heard that a plane had hit the WTC, they knew that it was AA 11, because they had been tracking it continuously since it had begun behaving erratically. Scoggins, as the manager of the Boston Center, presumably knew all of this. - Source: http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=2006091418303369KJC24 says: "I believe the transcripts are availible for all to see regarding ATC and NORAD."
Yes the transcripts, and in fact the full audio, is available thanks to the creators of Loose Change. 911myths.com notes, "We agree with very little that the Loose Change creators have to say, but they do at least deserve praise for both securing the release of the full NORAD 9/11 tapes, and making them public immediately."
That being said, you really should have a look at what what one of the Loose Change creators has to say about the tapes he helped secure the release of.
Infowarrior with Jason Bermas - 2/3 05/27
Infowarrior with Jason Bermas -3/3 05/27
KJC24 says: "I don't believe for a moment the hundreds of people involved in those organisations and communications were "in on it". When it comes to a conspiracy involving 3,000 innocent lives in the US, you can't depend on keeping those people quiet, so no conspiracy would ever involve that many people."
Frequently Asked Questions: Conspiracy
Cognitive Dissonance Meets 9/11 Truth
I have been looking into all aspects of this subject in depth since late 2004 and I completely understand where you are coming from since I used to think it was nonsense myself.
KJC24:
That really is too much bullshit for me to deal with right now.
John-Michael Talboo - Update May 5th 2011:
KJC24 never made a video on NORAD.
Related Info:
Pumpitout Radio: Foreknowledge and Lack of Air Defense
